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Post by Kaula on Aug 29, 2015 2:43:41 GMT
Excuse the messiness of this. Let's start with the biggest offender first that needs it most.. Blue = newPink = newerGreen = Newer new
Arcosians Brute x5 (5,000 PL) Monster x8 (20,000 PL) True x10 (Start) Full Powered/Mastered True x15/x12 <Wot? (150,000) (Perm) Mechanization into Android (Saga Defeat) (200,000)Royal x16 (220,000) Full Powered/Mastered Royal x22/x18 (300,000) (Replaces normal Royal) Ultimate Form x41 (440,000) Mastered Ultimate x46 (550,000) (Replaces normal Ultimate Form)Pretty much copied the format from true and all for the later transformations
Saiyans Oozaru x10 (start) (MOOOOON) FSSJ x7 (50,000)SSJ x12 (100,000) SSJOozaru x22 (100,000) (MOOOOON) USSJ or MSSJ x18/x12 or x16 (175,000) Mechanization into Bio Android (Saga Defeat) (280,000)SSJ2 x25 (250,000) SSJ2Oozaru x34 (250,000) (MOOON)SSJ3 x40 (400,000) SSJ3Oozaru x46 (400,000) (Moon)MSSJ3 x45(500,000) SSJ4 x60 (600,000) loljkGolden monkies in tiers? I like the idea.
Demons Demonic Will x3 (start) FF7Mako Star x8 (start) (STAR) Daimao/Demon King x8 <why? x10 (70,000) Hakaio/Destruction King x18 (140,00) Junsui Aku/Pure Evil x22 (240,00) FF7Mako Star Mk 2 x28 (240,000) (STAAAAAAAAR)Aku Sennin/Immortal Evil x33 (300,000)Makaioshin x39 (385,000) FF7Mako Star End Tier x43 (385,000) (Star)Ancestor's Will x42 (450,000) Something endgame for demons so they don't get chumped out. No "no using ur specl skil" though.
Namekians Great Namek x4 (Start for Warriors) Guardian Namek x7 (50,000) Mechanization into Demon (Saga Defeat) (70,000) (For Mazokou only?)Ascended Namek x18 (150,000) (Perm) (Requires Fusion/Seperation. CAN BUY A MINION FOR IT)Super Namek x20 (220,000) (perm) Mystic Namek x32 (300,000) (perm) Ultimate Namek x42 (425,000) (Perm) Nameless Namek x46 (530,000) (Perm)
Humans Intense Struggle x3 (Start) (Can be trained at 20,000) Ro'Shi x6 (70,000) Mechanization into Android (Saga Defeat) (100,000)Spiritual Enlightenment x16 (140,000) (Perm) Spiritual Ascension x23 (250,000) (Perm) Mechanization into Bio Android (Saga Defeat) (280,000)Legend x50 (500,000) (perm)
Majins Not much changed here. Unless you guys want the Mechanization into Human after a Saga Defeat at 500,000
Bio-Androids Bio Matabalize x3 > x8 (20,000) Semi-Perfect x13 (Requires Absorb) (120,000) (Perm) Semi-Perfect Full Power x15 (150,000) (Perm) Perfect Form x28 (Requires Absorb) (275,000) (Perm) Forced Perfect Form x24 (NO ABSORBS) (275,000) (Perm)Mechanization into one of their three races or a custom one? (300,000)Power Weighted x35/x25 (330,000) Super Perfect x43 (Saga Defeat) (400,000)
Androids --All trans perm (except overdrive)-- x6 (50,000) x9 (100,000) x16 (150,000) x22 (230,000) x31 (300,000) x39 (400,000) x43 (465,000)Put absorption model in the android shop when we implement it?
Hybrids Same as the current one, mechanizations for the races where they would be. x49 (Saga Defeat) (560,000) (Requires having chosen Hidden Potential at start. Also replaces the x45 on the species page, no need for that.)
Alien A x2 (Start) x6 (70,000) Mechanization into Android (Saga Defeat) (130,000)x15 (150,000) x25 (250,000) Mechanization into Bio Android (Saga Defeat) (380,000)x42 (400,000) x48 (460,000) Doesn't need the x50. lol. They have a 48 that isn't.. Well, necessary. I think it should maybe be lowered.
Alien B x4 (Start) x8 (20,000) x10 (110,000) x15 (160,000) Mechanization to Android (Saga Defeat) (200,000)x22 (250,000) x30 (300,000) x39 (450,000) x44 (500,00)
Alien C x12 (Start) (CELESTIAAAAL) x7 (50,000) x16 or x18/x12 (150,000) x20 (200,000) x32 (200,000) (CELESTIAAAAAL)Mechanization into Bio Android (Saga Defeat) (250,000)x32/x25 (300,000) x42 (430,000) x46 (430,000) (CELEEEESTIAAAAAL)
Changelog 1 Nerfed the Arcosians ultimate forms by 4 Changed SSJ3 Oozaru from 48 to 46 Added Demon timed event teired transformations Upped Namekian end game transformation by 2 Lowered Forced Perfect for Bio Android by 9
Added SSJ4 :3
Changelog 2 Added Mechanization to Alien A, as they are Fake Humans, after all. Added Mechanization to Alien C. Added sometype of mechanization to Bio Android. Added in Reikiko's Suggestion for Namekians
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Aug 29, 2015 3:20:52 GMT
Aku Sennin (Immortal Evil) (x33)
The rank of Aku Sennin is given to demonic beings whose spirit is said to be strong enough to persist through all of time. These fearsome demons are looked upon as immortal forces that will have the sheer power to haunt the realm till time stops. Their mighty power make kings shudder and bow before them. Though they aren't on the same level as the wicked Maikaioshin any demon powerful enough to attain this rank will be feared and respected throughout the realm.
(Someone check my Japanese all I got is google lol)
Ancestor's Will (x42)
It is said that this world shaking power is granted only to those demons who manage to attain the strength comparable to one of the original demonic ancestors. These 'ancestors' were the various beings that formed the demon realm during the creation of the universe. Their awesome power has served as the inspiration for grand tales and nightmares throughout all of time. When a demon attains this level of power they may be considered worthy enough to call upon the spirit of their ancestors to the fullest extent to aid them in battle allowing the already mighty demon to take that legendary power as their own.
Edit with thoughts:
-Why do the Monkey's and Aliens get extra tiers for their timed events and not the demons?
-Why is forced perfect form so much more powerful than normal perfect form? Shouldn't it be the same or less? It seems like it'd be easier to grind for that then it would to actually absorb people in DE. Say someone like Natto came along and grinded to get to that PL I'd be pretty pissed if I put my character on the line twice to absorb people and they got a higher bonus for just pumping out solos. I feel they should be reversed. Forced Perfection should be treated as sort of a "Get out of jail free Card" for those unlucky enough to not be able to find suitable prey. They can take the lesser bonus but still transform.
-Namekians still feel like they get the shortest end of the stick with the lowest final trans and probably one of the more annoying mid tier unlocks
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Post by Reikiko on Aug 29, 2015 15:05:38 GMT
So~ As I mentioned before me and Vipoi have been talking about transformations, but especially the difference between temporary transformations and 'permanent' ones. This is pretty much a messy form of what the end result of those idea bounces caused.
KP and Temporary Transformations: Temporary transformations are unique in the sense that for the most part unlike their permanent counter-parts those transformations come with a value known as 'Transformation Time' (TT). The first thing you have to know is that players can't suddenly 'power up from Base to SSJ3 without some consequences'. The first thing to note is that to ascend in a transformation you need to pay 1 KP. However, there are some exceptions that will be noted later.
Once you pay 1KP (this can be done alongside another tech if desired) you enter your transformed state and get a set duration of posts that allow you to remain in that transformation (the duration depending on two factors that I'll explain soon). Once you run out of T.T you got to pay 1 KP for an additional 2 rounds. Now the interesting part? Each ascension in transformation adds additional TT, but the important thing to note is that your TT has a cap, basically a hard limit that makes it useless to stack up ascensions to get more posts in your strongest form.
Confusing? Let me give an example with our current Saiyan format.
Saiyans normally can either use Oozaru or go Super Saiyan in the first 'tier'. In the case of Oozaru I'm inclined to call them 'Situation' transformations, so they last as long as the moon is out (or until they are defeated (or very heavily injured /their tail is cut off etc). Our Super Saiyan is a traditional temporary transformation.
If a player goes Super Saiyan by spending 1KP they get 10 rounds of fighting as a Super Saiyan before their run out of T.T and need to pay KP to maintain their transformation.
Now the interesting thing?
Lore-wise Mastered Super Saiyan shows us that at this point a Saiyan can easily maintain their transformation without any problem. What does this mean? In this format a suggestion I plan to raise is that Mastered Super Saiyan is a toggle-able Permanent (or for easy sake, consider it a Permanent). This means that a Saiyan can freely activate their 'Mastered Super Saiyan' by spending 1KP and will not drop out of it unless critically injured.
So onto Ultra Super Saiyan (or our Buffed Trunks form). A player could be willing to sacrifice the comfort of a 'permanent transformation' for a more powerful temporary transformation.
Basically this causes a recurring theme where players can either get a permanent transformation, or a 'powered up temporary one'. When a Super Saiyan goes Ultra Super Saiyan they get to pay 1KP from SSJ to USSJ BUT their transformation timer is 'refilled entirely' but they can only fight for 7 rounds before needing to spend KP to maintain their transformation. Why less time? Cause it's stronger and more exhausting.
SSJ2 and SSJ3 follow a 5 rounds and 3 rounds limit. But with a trick: Until you master two forms you can't recharge your T.T with KP
This basically will make transformations become a lot more tactical in use, but due to the limitation in times you'll see a difference in power between permanents and temporary transformations: Temporary transformations at end-game will be stronger, but have a short 3 rounds duration before demanding a refuel. To give an example of a temporary Saiyan line and a permanent Namekian (buffed up)
Saiyan: Oozaru -Situational- x10 (Start) SSJ -Temporary- x12 (100,000) MSSJ -Permanent- x16 OR USSJ x20 (175,000) SSJ2 x28 -temporary (250,000) Controlled SSJ2/Mastered SSJ2 x35 -temporary (300,000) SSJ3 x40 -temporary (400,000) SSJ3 Mastered x49 -temporary- (500,000)
Namekian: Great Namek x8 -temporary (Start) Guardian Namek x10 -Permanent (70,000) Ascended Namekian x16 -Permanent (150,000) Super Namek x25 Permanent (230,000) Mystic Namek x30 Permanent (280,000) Ultimate Namek x42 Permanent (350,000) Nameless Namekian x46 Permanent (400,000)
The numbers are rough examples, but the idea is that while temporary transformations are stronger, the advantage permanent transformations have is that they are faster/easier to get. Not to mention you can last in them permanently~
Note, this does mean certain races would get a certain make-over, for example Arcosians get the ability to transform without paying KP due to them having so many forms etc.
Albeit I might be sounding crazy right now =P Albeit, I do like the idea of the humans being the only ones with a permanent x50 at the current 'end-game' to show them as 'legends'
-Will try to put in more details later, having a headache atm.-
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Aug 29, 2015 18:18:39 GMT
Honestly I kind of think for simplicity's sake the difference should be flavored only. I always saw permanents not as some bonus but as basically meaning you lose the option to toggle the transformations effects on the character's bodies. For example a Bio Android cant revert into an imperfect form cause that doesn't make sense hence why it's labeled as a permanent. Meanwhile a saiyan can go into base whenever they like since they're transformation works on a toggle. Muddying up the combat with unnecessary limits and variations seems like it'd just be a huge headache. Just keep it simple.
That's my 2 cents.
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Post by Kaula on Aug 29, 2015 20:15:28 GMT
I completely refuse to awknowledge the INSULT that is what you suggest for Saiyans. That is a spit in the face if anything, that makes them completely WORTHLESS end game. So all other races. ALL OTHER RACES get a permanent x44 and up, humans with a x50 that is no time limit. And, what. Saiyans can only use their final transformation for THREE POSTS!? They can only combat with someone their level fairly for three turns?
Kind of bullshit. Yeah, no. Fuck that noise. xD
The only thing I agree to is the Namekians, probably.
Edit: As I will say, temporary transes is stupid. They won't be a thing. They will never be a thing. Too much non-balance brought by them. If you want to make SSJ3 last for only three posts, it has to be higher then the highest trans to make up for lasting ONLY THREE POSTS. You can't have them just be equal for three turns and then auto lose right after that because your opponent stays x50 indefinately. That's retarded. Besides. I asked Rev about something like this a while back. He said it wouldn't fly because of the first reason I just said. No need to bring limits to something that's already balanced, thus punishing the players who are that race. THINK BEFORE YOU SUGGEST. GEEZE.
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Post by Kaula on Aug 29, 2015 23:26:03 GMT
I've asked for a few select members for their thoughts on the race changes. Here's their comments. The first two recieved changelog 1 of the stuff, the last two recieved changelog 2 Looks great to me, honestly. It balances everything out, just some races wait longer as a debt for being awesome early on. I agree. :3
Look great except for the No Androids and the forced perfect form for the Bio-androids. Why not have a buyable Absorbable android like the Namekians get with their Fusion trans? Also the Mechnization into a Demon for Namekians, I can go both ways on that with it being only for Mazokou or maybe like a Warrior namekian Mechnization into a Mazokou and then into a demon like in a later trans or something? Either way yea these are pretty balanced now. One can say Too balanced? lol But Im not even sure if thats a bad thing lol Then asked him if he ment the Absorption models on Androids. I also asked if he liked how I kept time events relevant. He replied with.. Yea no, I meant the androids for the Bio-android trans. Like for maybe their Semi-perfct you can buy a Buyable android when you reach the Pl requirement but to have it some what difficult to get their perfect they need to absorb a PC android UNLESS they reach like 300k then they can buy their Android. As far as Majins go, yea no buyable absorbs for them. lol and Yes I did, Good little Kaula. lol
Actually, I like the new list. It certainly makes it possible for Namekians and other races to really compete with Arcosians and Saiyans, which will help entice players to pick a race other than Saiyans, which seems to have had an explosion of new additions. Good lord, I cannot fathom facing a SSJ3 Oozaru. That would be HORRIFYING, but flavor wise, that would be epic as hell. Giving all races a mechanization option helps with the variety as well. If nothing else, it provides End Game level characters with the power to lead other players, and create really competitive, and literally ANYONE from any race is capable of becoming the strongest without worrying about being nerfed by someone else's higher-tier transformation. I support the changes, personally.
I favor the new Oozaru changes and think that hybrids that may not have choosen oozaru given the new bits for it should be allowed to perhaps change what they chose as well as like for when we add android shop and absorption models. Everything else I like. xD I love and new additives and really don't have complaints. I do think however as I said if a hybrid or when absorption model is added androids that options like that should be allowed a one time chance to change it if they so desire or stick to original path. x3 But I love it all. Great work really impressed yo
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Post by Vi-Poi on Aug 30, 2015 0:19:51 GMT
It has to be voted through here though, and not through the public. The players making uncritical 'yea go 4 it lel' votes on almost everything was the largest reason why we made this system to begin with. For that reason, we're not really supposed to show people these conversations until they're finished.
You put a lot of effort putting all the information together Kaula, but I'm not in favor of any of the Secret Transformations being implemented in their current form. Much of the balance that Bao put in to these forms were because they were secret or hard to reach or unusual, where a person might get options for one and never reach the other options. If we just plug them in without preconditions, they will be overpowered. I do like your idea of giving people more path options and meaning, I just don't think these numbers are the way to go about it.
I'm highly against the Saiyan changes. Saiyans are one of the highest averagers to begin with, they have a very strong beginning whether their Environmental x10, and one of the stongest endings. They never really pay for it except in the midgame, where they're supposed to experience a desert. These Oozaru tierings make it so that Saiyans never have to experience a low point or even a middle point. During the Full Moon, they'd always be Kings. For instance, every single one of their Oozaru modifiers puts them in the best in class for their range. Not only do they have the best modifiers for their base PL domain, they have by far the best, usually experiencing the next tier higher at the tier before. This doesn't even account for the fact that Saiyans are heavy hitters without Oozaru. At no point would a Saiyan never have access to the best modifiers in the game, from 0 PL to endgame. And even when they didn't have access to the Full Moon or Power Ball, they would be good/great for most of the game, as they are now.
I'll come up with some numbers in a few days and post them, but they will likely be very small changes to propose, as I'm highly against large-scale changes to the modifiers, which is the mechanical skeleton for the site and has to be handled very carefully and slowly in my opinion.
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Post by Kaula on Aug 30, 2015 0:26:40 GMT
The first Golden Oozaru form was made by Rev, from what I remember. I got that from him. We can nerf the first two forms of golden Oozaru. But the first one was ment to compete with SSJ2, from what I remember. And isn't the same to be said about the whole star and celestial events?
If we aren't going to somehow encoorperate them and power ball throughout the whole game, then let's just get rid of it. Use the top spot on the site for news instead.
Did you have any thoughts on the mechanizations, though? I think I was pretty fair with them. Right?
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Aug 30, 2015 0:59:55 GMT
I'd rather not have the 2nd and 3rd tier forms, if possible, for the Oozaru. However, if the first form is to be put through, for the Super Oozaru, then we need to have the next two. My recommendation would probably be more along the lines of this, "Add +(x4 Base) to the tiered forms. The forms are summoned in the moon light and the Power ball. If transformed via power ball, this additional power goes down to +(x2 Base) instead of the +(x4 base)."
Thoughts?
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Post by Vi-Poi on Aug 30, 2015 1:01:55 GMT
Early game is very long, and Oozaru makes them the conditional kings for that early period. If we give them that effect through the entire game, then we can't really justify Saiyans ending up in the top three at the end-game.
It's still very useful as is. But I agree a Golden Ape might be interesting, I just don't think it should be dominant throughout the entire game. The closest to canon as far as the golden (pun intended) Toriyama standard is Goku's brief Super Saiyan-Oozaru melding in Dr. Slump:
Here is my proposal:
Make a Super Oozaru a x22 available once Mastered Super Saiyan has been achieved. Mastered Super Saiyan must be activated, and Oozaru Mastery must be trained, plus two new techs attached to Oozaru Mastery, Super Oozaru Training [SU2] (which would unlock) and Super Oozaru Mastery [SU3] (which gives control). The same -2 conditions apply as they do to Powerball Oozaru, meaning that the P-ball launcher gets a x20.
And that'd be it. Super Oozaru and powerball would still be enormously beneficial, because a squad of Super Oozarus can compete with a x30 or even a x40. It just wouldn't be game breaking.
I'm still not sure I like the idea of a Super Oozaru, I think we run the risk of making this site too Saiyan-centric or servicing Saiyans too much if we go down this road too far, but that's the number I'd like to see if we make them.
I'll get to the proposals for alternative pathways for the rest of the species soon.
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Post by Kaula on Aug 30, 2015 1:03:06 GMT
I kinda like it, I just feel that the SSJ3 Oozaru should be slightly better then MSSJ3. It just feels.. Like it should be more terrifying. :x Or equally as terrifying. Unless you are letting us add the plus 4 to all transformations.. Which would then give us a x49 for MSSJ3Oozaru which is, admittedly more broken then what I suggested. o3o
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Aug 30, 2015 1:23:10 GMT
I actually really like that idea, what are your thoughts on the Makyo Star and the Galaxy force tiers? Similar set up?
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Post by Vi-Poi on Aug 30, 2015 5:15:53 GMT
If we put Makyo and Celestial in too, it'd be n-2 and n+2 for the Demon/Alien C respectively.
I'm going to do a formal list of things, with the options, in the coming day or so. It won't be as large of a change as the original Bao numbers, but it will be a change that I feel hits the numbers correctly with an explanation why.
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Post by President Bao on Aug 31, 2015 3:31:21 GMT
I will try and respond to this when I get a chance(Can't say when that will be specifically, hopefully next couple of days depending on access).
Just putting this here to say that an essential part of any reworked forms will be to add the requirement that you wish for a monobrow and a polkadot tie from the dragon before accessing, very important. This is after all a World of dragonBao: Souls roleplay.
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Aug 31, 2015 3:40:48 GMT
I will try and respond to this when I get a chance(Can't say when that will be specifically, hopefully next couple of days depending on access). Just putting this here to say that an essential part of any reworked forms will be to add the requirement that you wish for a monobrow and a polkadot tie from the dragon before accessing, very important. This is after all a World of dragonBao: Souls roleplay. Done. Now give me Hyper Human God Hyper Human.
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