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Post by Zuni on Jul 1, 2015 6:21:35 GMT
I had another thought re: getting your body back. Rather than just spending cash, we could make it shoki. You die, you can get your 'last' body back - mechanization and all - relatively cheap... or you can spend 66% of your base PL in shoki to get your 'true' body back. This would tie in nicely with Resurrection of F IMO.
This isn't so much a question as a comment - and I feel bad posting it because it feels mostly like naysaying but... I don't like the vast majority of these.
Most of them feel like 'if you play weak, you get to be strong at the end' which is - IMO - the human unique selling point and should remain so. I'm also not really a fan of getting around absorb/fusion requirements just by bullheadedly continuing to train - that feels odd to me, as a story point, and I prefer the idea I mooted around spending zeni for NPCs that let you fuse but gain no other benefits. From a game design perspective, it does the same thing (word count = both PL and zeni after all) but in some cases the 'just keep going' here is better than the 'find a PC' story beat and that seems wrong to me.
The ones I DO like are...
Arcosians - because despite what I just said, I think the arcosian drought of good transformations for 'natural' progression after 220,000 is fine. However, the one canon example we have of something similar to this (even if it wasn't written at the time) was achieved by an arcosian who was cyberized, so... that needs some looking at IMO (as I alluded to above - I think that idea could work!). I also think it should be a x45 to finish off not a x50 - equal to saiyans is fair, but humans are never as dominant as arcosians get to be in the early game.
False SSJ - This is pretty cool and I like it, not much more to say there.
Tao - This is also pretty cool and I like it, plus we have a player who is pretty clearly hoping to get something similar, albeit it earlier because this was secret at the time.
Uub - I like this ... but it should be way higher than 500k (because that allows a majin to instantly jump in at the human endgame after being HIGHLY competitive throughout the rest of the game). I'm thinking like... 750k-1mil, even. Something ridiculous but theoretically possible.
I would also like to say that I think the races which essentially become androids (most arcosians, alien B) should actually become androids in terms of transformation - Overdrive potential and all. Androids would still maintain their incredibly strong 'cannot be sensed' and 'return from death for cash' racial abilities as unique selling points, but I heavily dislike how arcosians and alien B just become 'second rate' androids in terms of transformation potential for the rest of their lifespan - especially if they are giving up a strong endgame to do it too. This is kind of its own point, but as it is semi-related to the current discussion here I thought I'd make note of it - it probably isn't worth a full thread all of its own.
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Post by Hyoza on Jul 1, 2015 7:14:32 GMT
Given the discussion on Mechanisation as a global mechanic, I'm a proponent of holding off on changing any of this til that is dealt with, but regarding Arcosians - their final trans should be AT LEAST x47. They are ahead of Saiyans (Arcosians' x10 is at-will but comes with a hefty penalty to gains, while Saiyans can just schedule all their fights for full moons if they want their x10) until 100k only, and then behind them for the REST of the game. Given that the reqs for achieving this final tier are to remain organic the whole game, leaving you with no access to forms above x16 for around 200k, I think it's totally fair. Furthermore, if we are allowing people to switch back and forth between mechanisation and organic form for DBall wishes/zeni cost (as suggested in the mechanisation/bio-mutation thread), I think those who stayed organic the whole way deserve a slightly better bonus than their indecisive brethren. Also, Zuni: Frieza was revived in his mechanised form. The cybernetic parts were removed so his organic components could be regenerated in some hyper-advanced healing pod, so I'd be against letting people come back in an organic bod - The saiyans didn't come back from the dead with regrown tails It's really not an easy thing to achieve and tbh I don't feel like the 'Humans should be best at endgame' thing is really a valid counter-argument. To achieve their x50, Arcosians have to fall behind every other race by huge margins, including Humans. AND then they have to stay there for a good half of the game's planned progression. A half of the game. That's enormous. I do think that Bio-Android forms that don't utilise absorption should maybe be weaker, but easier to achieve. Getting absorbs has worked out to actually be pretty hard with the way things run here. Will speak more on this later.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jul 1, 2015 7:19:49 GMT
Some of these transformations that you've posted up need more clarification on achievement. Are we following the GT format for Super Saiyan Oozaru? Is this implying we're involving GT concepts and is it wanted, for that matter, considering Gt's been written off as more of a side story?
What's the conditions for these other forms? I see, in particular (as I'm a hybrid player), that Hybrids get a x49 transformation for not following the other paths. What's the middle ground, or the rather, what's the 3rd circle in the Tri-Ven-Diagram? What will we call next 2 Arcosian forms, if we even want to make it so Arcosians get 2 forms for waiting up to 500,000? Why is it that Demons have to be going against the one trait they've got going for them that makes them relevant to the growth period? It seems as though they're intended to be punished the most, currently, with the other races having some sort of means to balance that out. Androids actually have the ability, as far as your document tells me, that they can still expand their power without using overdrive and becoming permanently mightier than most other races currently. Namekians going Demon, in particular, seems much more counter productive on what we'd want to see as an evil path for them to take, forgive me for sounding 'brash,' but it seems to me that Alien C's being given more possibility without something changing for them in the end.
It feels as though the excel document of transformations feels extremely vague, in regards to what can, or could be doing for us. 3 sets of transformations sound sensible, but then you've got things that are simply feeling as though you're sending a screw into your brain to try and come up with something. This is probably coming off as antagonistic, but these are the questions I've been holding restrained when I saw the document.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 1, 2015 7:32:14 GMT
I could accept a x47 but I think a x45 is fairer because - although the arcosian advantage only lasts a short time - there is no point at which an arcosian can't pull out a x10. That means arcosians can often force fighters with three or four times their base PL to pull out transformations just to match them until the ~100k base PL barrier is crossed. The midgame is miserable, but the early game allows even weak arcosians to be 'relevant' in big threads, even if not a dominating force.
It stops mattering when people start getting to the 100k level, but if you take balancing to be between equals, the arcosian early game is one of the only points in the game where characters who have theoretically equal PL levels are completely, hilariously outmatched against each other in the arcosian's favour, and it lets them punch significantly above their weight. I know it doesn't feel like a big bonus because there's now multiple super saiyans running around, but you can't really balance the game based on that.
The sacrifice is undoubtedly a big one, but I think giving them a better final form than saiyans - who have merely middling experiences throughout their entire progression, really - is a bit unfair (look at Super Saiyan - they have a 40k window in that before they start being outmatched again). Humans also have no point in the game at all where they are noticeably dominant until the very end, so letting them match that x50 when they have never been on top before seems unfair to me. Its true Humans have a less miserable midgame experience because they get a x25, but they also never had anything close to a strong early game and it doesn't take long for the other multipliers to exceed that x25 at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 7:44:56 GMT
For hybrids, it says that there's a possible endgame x49 multiplier (Denying the last 2 previous transformations I think...?) but does that mean that a hybrid would have to only use the x6 for the entire game until 500k? I couldn't see that being possible unless they never fought, always their trainings up to 20k, and did 5 threads every week. All of that is unlikely to occur and them be worth anything as a fighter past 70k.
Most of the hybrid transformation is geared towards the saiyan side, so what would the hybrids gain toward the demon side?
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jul 1, 2015 8:43:31 GMT
therevolution's proposed rebalances to wip-variant transformations SaiyansFalse Super Saiya-jin: A concept I am ambivalent towards. Was a fairly common transformation on previous site. Now with the revelation of the trans, its multiplier should be dropped to a 7x. Bio-Broly: See Mechanisation/Bio-mutation SuggestionGolden Oozaru: To me, this one requires the most radical change. I love the concept of the Super Saiyan Oozaru, its one of my favourite filler/GT concepts; however, to me, it makes no sense to use a version too similar to the one used in GT in terms of power buffs or even appearance. In concept, I can see a 'golden' Oozaru occurring when a saiyan, who has achieved super saiyan, transforms into an Oozaru. In the great ape form, they can then power into their Super Saiyan ki pool (I would suggest the requirement of mastered Super Saiyan). The multiplier for this is simple; 10x from Oozaru, 12x from Super Saiyan - 22x (or 20x, with the 8x Power Ball Oozaru). My one big qualm about my own suggestion is this places a further xform between SSj1 and SSj2. HumansSee Mechanisation/Bio-mutation Suggestion ArcosiansSee Mechanisation/Bio-mutation SuggestionIf my proposed mechanisation rebalances take place, I believe arcosians should get a little bit of a buff to their mid-game. Not too much, but enough that people who are willing to stick to the 'natural' path don't have a completely miserable 250k before they can reach the 'ultimate evolution'-esque transes outlined here. I would drop them down to a 42x/47x, though, if this occurs. AndroidsAbsorption Models: We had a member Kayle asking why absorption models weren't available from the start, and if we're to have them as an alternate 'trait' path for androids I have to ask the same question. They should be available from the start in this case, possibly at the sacrifice of overdrive. Later transes: I feel Androids are only competitive through using Overdrive. Overdrive already has its debuff (xmult reduction upon use). I can't think of a specific rebalance for the variant transes, here, but possibly something less harsh than 'never use Overdrive at all' (possibly a max limit of use before this transes are disbarred?). DemonsIt seems counter-intuitive to me that we would give every demon an additional, somewhat different 'skill' and then reward not using them later on. I might actually suggest something like having a better end transformation depending on your character's kill count, or how effectively they actually made use of their 'skill'. HybridsAsides from the fact these all seem to be saiyan/human balanced, Kinda LSSj: I need to know more about this first. Why only hybrids? (Also, as a somewhat irrelevant aside, I feel there's a misconception around SSj2; if you 'unlock' it at 250,000 through emotions, you can still pop it manually later; however, it is easier to unlock at 300,000/325,000 just through training the SSj form.) 49x: assuming that this is a better 'Ultimate Potential', perhaps with flavouring to be like a human's end form. Now that it is known as a variant trans, I'm not sure its existence is justified. alternatively, reduced multiplier. NamekiansDemon King: I'm not sure why this one, particularly, needs to involve a saga defeat. 33x: I appreciate this variant trans, but thats possibly due to my growing misgivings about balancing Namekian transformations on fusion/fission/unlocks. Now that it is known, though, I'd suggest a lower mult, or a higher req. Alien AI see no issues here. Alien BSee Arcosian suggestions. Alien CSee suggestion for Namekian 33x, or Hybrid 49x. Bio-AndroidAbsorbless Perfection: I'm all for creating a variant of bio-androids that do not require absorbs. However, I believe they should have slightly more difficult base requirements to compensate. Here, we have a Perfect trans that has -less- PL required (although I can sort of see the justification, as you don't get absorb PL) AND a higher multiplier (and here I can't see any justification). Majin36/39x: Not sure about the wording here. They -got- the 150k trans by not absorbing/sep/unlock, or if they didn't get the 150k at all? Uub Reincarnation: I think anything to do with reincarnation should depend upon a dragon ball wish, and I was going to discuss it as a universal mechanical similar to the mechanisation/bio-mutation thread.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 1, 2015 8:51:17 GMT
I think Golden Oozaru should be a (very minor - +x1-+x3) boost to Super Saiyan in Oozaru. You shouldn't just add the transformations together; that's way too much. On the other hand, I think you should be able to do it from the moment you get Super Saiyan. I'd be fine with that.
Androids do not need Overdrive to be competitive for very long. Although they do at the beginning, by the time they start unlocking their actual transformations, overdrive is purely a boost that propels them from 'okay or good' to 'above average/dominant' throughout the rest of their time period. That's why I don't think it is fair to other races who become androids to be locked out of it; the android trans line isn't BAD without Overdrive, but with it, it is notably superior to absolutely everything. There are very few points until 500k when androids are below the average curve when using Overdrive; in fact in the way I find it easiest to visualize power growth, there's none at all.
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Post by Maeve Rakshasa on Jul 1, 2015 18:41:43 GMT
DemonsIt seems counter-intuitive to me that we would give every demon an additional, somewhat different 'skill' and then reward not using them later on. I might actually suggest something like having a better end transformation depending on your character's kill count, or how effectively they actually made use of their 'skill'. The 'kill count' thing seems a little goofy, you're basically at the mercy of the other players with this one and whether or not your once per thread move hits or even kills them is really up to them I think. The "effectively used" thing is a little sketchy as well though since that could be suggestive to different people.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jul 1, 2015 19:06:50 GMT
DemonsIt seems counter-intuitive to me that we would give every demon an additional, somewhat different 'skill' and then reward not using them later on. I might actually suggest something like having a better end transformation depending on your character's kill count, or how effectively they actually made use of their 'skill'. The 'kill count' thing seems a little goofy, you're basically at the mercy of the other players with this one and whether or not your once per thread move hits or even kills them is really up to them I think. The "effectively used" thing is a little sketchy as well though since that could be suggestive to different people. My point was to basically balance the variant around successful demonic activity, rather than self-limitation/lack of success.
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Post by Natto on Jul 1, 2015 19:42:08 GMT
Okay... In my humble opinion:
Saiyans False SSJ: x11 is too much! I think something like x5 would be more than enough... Gold Oozaru: the golden ape on my point of view is nothing more than a Super Saiyan Great Ape. Therefore I think it should be considered both bonus (Great Ape Bonus of 10 plus SSJ bonus of 12) and no further.
Arcosians I agree with Rev about review the bonus of the new transformations.
I still don't have a strong opinion about the others though...
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jul 1, 2015 20:06:28 GMT
Zuni, can you explain why Androids don't need Overdrive to be competitive for long? I'm interested in seeing the formula you use for your curves. Their averaging without Overdrive is in the 34th percentile of all species, with the most worst-in-ranges out of any species and the least amount of peak time. Their averaging with Overdrive is good, but not the best. Their reward for not being competitive the entire game would be taking a paltry +4x. For False SSJ/Saiyan Soul, I'd recommend a x6. Half of SSJ, a very good early form, plus it makes Saiyans not the 'Sans Arcosian best', leaving that spot for Namekians. Not sure where the tail removal part comes into it, or if I like that, though I agree there needs to be a trigger. Arcosians I could see an alternative pathway for that doesn't involve their +16x transforms but rewards them large in the end.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 1, 2015 21:36:30 GMT
Zuni, can you explain why Androids don't need Overdrive to be competitive for long? I'm interested in seeing the formula you use for your curves. Their averaging without Overdrive is in the 34th percentile of all species, with the most worst-in-ranges out of any species and the least amount of peak time. Their averaging with Overdrive is good, but not the best. Their reward for not being competitive the entire game would be taking a paltry +4x. For False SSJ/Saiyan Soul, I'd recommend a x6. Half of SSJ, a very good early form, plus it makes Saiyans not the 'Sans Arcosian best', leaving that spot for Namekians. Not sure where the tail removal part comes into it, or if I like that, though I agree there needs to be a trigger. Arcosians I could see an alternative pathway for that doesn't involve their +16x transforms but rewards them large in the end. 'Competitive' is a subjective opinion. I'm taking it to mean 'within 60% of the highest species'. I no longer have any of my old data because my laptop died and I haven't had a chance to pull the non-essential data from the disc. In brief, and from memory, though... There are points after the early game where androids are the straight-up best without using Overdrive; not many, but they exist. There are MANY points after the 200k mark where, with Overdrive, they aren't just 'average' or close to it - they are THE BEST. This means, by definition, that their standard form is within x3 of the highest race out there - which is highly competitive before the x3 is added. They do not have more 'worst-in-ranges' than humans or alien-a, that's for sure. Their average with Overdrive - taken not as the highest single PL, but as an average of all PLs within a given range, is the best. Straight up. Outside of the very early game (50k-) and the very late game (450k+) they are never below the average PL. This means that in a world where there is one of all race at all PLs, androids enjoy the most consistent period of being able to participate in sagas and be confident of making an impact - because their potential PL is almost always within the 60%+ range of the very highest person in that curve - something which cannot be said for any other race. Combined with the lack of fear of death, if you want to play the race that can most consistently throw themselves into game-changing events, android is the clear and obvious choice by a mile.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 21:47:28 GMT
If False SSJ is gonna have the requirement of no tail by 10,000, then I think it should be either x7 or x8. This is a rather specific requirement, and could very quickly be missed if you're not careful. One or two threads and you might find yourself above 10K PL, in which case you're now locked out from the form.
As well if we look at the transformation like its depiction in the movie, then it had a short duration. It wasn't quite as short as something like Gohan's one-shot rage attack, but it did have a automatic end time that came about prior to the fight's conclusion. The limited time frame might be the better balancing point for the transformation, rather than the no tail.
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Post by Articho Reville on Jul 1, 2015 23:24:58 GMT
I agree with Bharhash
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Post by Zexama on Jul 2, 2015 0:58:12 GMT
Uub - I like this ... but it should be way higher than 500k (because that allows a majin to instantly jump in at the human endgame after being HIGHLY competitive throughout the rest of the game). I'm thinking like... 750k-1mil, even. Something ridiculous but theoretically possible. I don't think it should be anywhere near 1,000,000 because that would just be ridiculous, even though it is possible, as you said. I was thinking you should need something around 650,000, not 750k-1mil.
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