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Post by Hyoza on Jul 2, 2015 1:08:14 GMT
So you guys are cool with Majins (who perform consistently well throughout the game once they get their first real xform) getting an endgame x50 + race change, essentially allowing them to skip all the challenges a true human faces to get to that point.
But you refuse to accept Arcosians getting an endgame x50 despite having a MUCH tougher game from 100k onwards.
To say nothing of the fact that Uub happened through a DBall wish, it's not an innate aspect of Majin biology.
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Post by Zexama on Jul 2, 2015 1:15:54 GMT
I believe that Arcosians should get a 50x, it makes up for the golden frieza as well as making it fair for all the troubles they went through.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 2, 2015 4:58:43 GMT
So you guys are cool with Majins (who perform consistently well throughout the game once they get their first real xform) getting an endgame x50 + race change, essentially allowing them to skip all the challenges a true human faces to get to that point. But you refuse to accept Arcosians getting an endgame x50 despite having a MUCH tougher game from 100k onwards. To say nothing of the fact that Uub happened through a DBall wish, it's not an innate aspect of Majin biology. Good point. I withdraw my coolness with Uub.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jul 2, 2015 5:05:21 GMT
Agreed on that portion, Hyoza. It's a bit too unfair to other players.
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Post by Kayle on Jul 2, 2015 6:54:21 GMT
I've looked over the sheet and there's a lot that I don't understand.
Why does hybrid get a "kidna lssj" trans and why do you have to have oozaru to get it? Does oozaru have something to do with the trans itself? Wasn't the "lssj" a pure breed?
Why do you have to take hidden potential to get the x49 for hybrid? Wouldn't denying both paths be enough? I dont understand why the later trans would depend on earlier.
Why do you have to loose tail for fssj? Also, why do you have to choose between hidden potential and oozaru to begin with for hybrids?
If GT is noncanon on this site, how can you have a true golden oozaru form? Don't get me wrong, I totally love this trans, and wish hybrids got the option because I love oozaruing in general, but it doesn't make much sense being people have been told not to use GT reasoning before
Why for bio android, does not absorbing give you a higher multiplier? Also, if the multiplier is 33 for imperfect, and it unlocks you being able to unlock perfect without absorb as well, then why is the x33 higher than the x28? You cant say that the x33 is for perfect, because nothing requires an absorb after that.
If you can get the absorption model android from a trans, why not make the model available at the beginning?
Why would you get a bonus for not using a skill that is one of the real perks of being a demon?
This is all just based on a quick glance at the sheet. It's very confusing to me in general. Personally I think Fssj should be like x6 and not depend on a tail. The absorption model should be available from the get go. The golden oozaru should be reworked. Arcosians should get their trans unhidden, but x50 is a little much for them given the beginning play. Also, Im not to sure about reincarnation for majins. It seems to defeat the purpose of both races.
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Jul 2, 2015 7:11:30 GMT
To say nothing of the fact that Uub happened through a DBall wish, it's not an innate aspect of Majin biology.
This point is actually super sound. The Uub 'transformation' shouldn't be allowed since it was all based upon a wish not something Buu attained on his own.
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Post by President Bao on Jul 3, 2015 15:38:29 GMT
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hqM0zRLinToqFOneYA_5fxEDMO1wTVbSoQutut_qYGE/edit#gid=848021352docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L5PTKWEN2Xn9G1xDJJdlluYlk0rnilGd-FbkPwv-qfY/edit?pli=1#gid=357182052linking above for easy reference. If I get time might do graph for the secret forms to give you visualisation on how they fit. Also will add numbers to my replies here, for easy reference if any questions overlap - so don't be alarmed by my counting . Also the ones that are suggestions, rather than involving questions, I'll leave for now in the name of getting this post done more quickly. (so no offence intended to anyone I might jump past), there may however be relevant comments among these clarifications, so I definitely encourage all to read ahead. What is the 'requires desperation' bit? Do we get to determine that or is there somewhere where it states when a 'desperation' transformation can and can't be used? (1) Desperation is true 'need', rather than a 'desire' or rage, in canon characters could be considered desperate when they had sustained heavy injury and yet still continued fighting, or when they were put in a situation where it was 'do or die' (such as a blast that is literally about to kill them), not just 'do or kinda be hurt a little'. eg. when videl was being viciously beaten by spopovich but kept on going, or when Tien had his arm ripped off by nappa, or when Yamcha was being crushed by the gravity chamber. There's some flexibility but basically it's a last ditch effort, and I personally wouldn't expect it to be achievable outside a death-enabled thread. First and foremost, i'd like to say these all seem pretty awesome. Looking at Demon, though, i'm somewhat curious. The requirements for a Demon's hidden forms required them to never use their trump card, by the looks of it. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind that, is all. That's probably the most vague and well-hidden one of the bunch. Demons seem great at the early game but the X4 PL demon ability really seemed to let them have some staying power up until they gained their SSJ-equivalent transformation, the x18 if I remember right. I don't think any demon ever made would have achieved the hidden transformations without the reveal here. What stirred the decision to make such a tricky requirement? Basically they'd have to forego the ace up their sleeve for their entire game in favor of a bit more late game staying power. Was it inspired by anything in particular? I'm interested in both a lore and mechanics factor. It's such a nice perk to have that ability on hand, leading me to believe that no demon on the site would have ended up achieving it. For example, an Arcosian player that simply wanted to stay forever organic instead of the idea of the cybercosian route, flavored or otherwise, would have eventually became a powerhouse on par with Human's Legend. It seems a bit more realistic for an Arcosian to stick it out as an organic rather than a demon never using their ace, especially if they became involved in a DE or Saga. That attack could turn the tables of an entire conflict. I'm not complaining, i'm actually genuinely curious and on top of that, another situation that comes to mind is when the Makyo Star isn't out and about and before they have an x8. Only having an x3 transformation would be a huge motivator to turn the tables with that ability or at least attempt to. There's a few others I find pretty vague also, so this is just a basis of example. (2) All of the hidden forms revolve around either being in a very specific situation at a specific time, or about holding to a path which puts you at a disadvantage(with the fact it's hidden meaning you have chosen this disadvantage expecting no real payoff, or on a very big gamble). (3) The fact the demon skill is so useful, and is so tempting to use (and so expected to be used), is the very reason why not using it justified a secret form. If someone had truly gone that far without having used it, then they had stayed true to this personal limitation without any compensation and thus, during a point where demons have a lull in effectiveness, they get given a boost back up wards to top of the pack. I have a question about majins. For the final 'UBB' transformation how it requires to get 500,000 PL, saga defeat and to become a human. What is the multiplayer? Is saga defeating losing the battle or dying? One last thing that hasn't got to do with hidden transformations; When it says for the 150,000pl and 300,000pl transformations, when it says: Requires absorb/Separation/unlock. Is this implying you only have to do one of them? I've noticed this is different to the hidden 'Ubb' trans and the Ubb one is obvious that you need all of them to use the transformation. I'm guessing that Separation is the evil part (or good) coming out and you have to duel and all that. Is unlock getting to 150,000pl and 300,000pl or something? (4) There is no multiplier, it's litterally swapping your race to human . The excepted effect of such is that you'd be a human prodigy, you'd only have your 'mastered focus' transformation, and yet the moment you learn ki supression you would have met all the requirements for your following forms and so with a little training would quickly ascend through the human transformations tree (mirroring uub in many ways). (5) Keep in mind though this secret transformation meant that, in order to be in the running, you had to be right on that 500,000 mark(I was considering maybe a leeway of about 5 or 10 thousand at most for these secret forms). so, 520,000pl... sorry, you missed it, no human reincarnation for you. (6) Saga defeat is a bit a of a squirely way of saying death... but not nessecarily 100% of the time. In that IC wise you don't need to acctually play it as legitimately dying, but for all intents and purposes you basically did (think frieza blowing up on namek, Cell's explosive suicide or adult gohan when he was blasted by buu but 'saved' by supreme kai, unconscious in the forest and undetectable through ki sense). In many cases 'recovering' from a saga defeat would mean someone else such as an ally would have to come scoop you up, though that is a bit of a generalisation. If you don't qualify for one of these 'saga defeat' forms then the expectation would indeed be that you pass on, making such stipulations a kind of 'bypass otherworld free' cards. (7) Yeah, 'blocker transformations' are ones which have an external requirement, you cannot proceed until meeting this requirement. Absorb - ala majins and bio-androids, enter a saga thread and nom your target, you get a bonus from their power and you get to unlock whatever form it was that had this listed. This is designed to be the easiest method of passing these barriers. Fusion - ala Namekians, much the same as absorb, though the fusee is generally willing and so does not require a death-battle. I suppose their could be same way to force-fuse, but it's not a situation we've encountered or discussed so that's bluewater. Separation - ala kami/piccolo or mr buu/evil buu, you must first reach the required pl for the form in question THEN split. The intention was each half gets half your pl, meaning you have to work your way back up to the form, but once you do your fission will have counted as meeting the requirement and so you can unlock the form freely now (no longer inhibited by whichever side was blocking you before). This is one of the harder, though less confrontational ways of bypassing the block, and gives you a neat story aspect/character shift to play with. Unlock - certain characters have pl unlocking abilities, such as the elder Guru, for characters who have not received a pl boost and prove themselves worthy in extraordinary circumstances, the guru/counterparts do have the ability to unlock your potential and give you access to the form you were currently inhibited from. Intended to be rare though, the regular pl unlock could be given freely but this transformation unlock was intended to be more exclusive. (otherwise, it would be the no-brainer way to skip your requirement and get your trans without effort, currently a lack of such characters make unlock mostly irrelevant though) Seperation and Unlock (unlike absorb and fusion) were intended to only be usable once.
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Post by President Bao on Jul 3, 2015 15:39:53 GMT
I had another thought re: getting your body back. Rather than just spending cash, we could make it shoki. You die, you can get your 'last' body back - mechanization and all - relatively cheap... or you can spend 66% of your base PL in shoki to get your 'true' body back. This would tie in nicely with Resurrection of F IMO. This isn't so much a question as a comment - and I feel bad posting it because it feels mostly like naysaying but... I don't like the vast majority of these. Most of them feel like 'if you play weak, you get to be strong at the end' which is - IMO - the human unique selling point and should remain so. I'm also not really a fan of getting around absorb/fusion requirements just by bullheadedly continuing to train - that feels odd to me, as a story point, and I prefer the idea I mooted around spending zeni for NPCs that let you fuse but gain no other benefits. From a game design perspective, it does the same thing (word count = both PL and zeni after all) but in some cases the 'just keep going' here is better than the 'find a PC' story beat and that seems wrong to me. The ones I DO like are... Arcosians - because despite what I just said, I think the arcosian drought of good transformations for 'natural' progression after 220,000 is fine. However, the one canon example we have of something similar to this (even if it wasn't written at the time) was achieved by an arcosian who was cyberized, so... that needs some looking at IMO (as I alluded to above - I think that idea could work!). I also think it should be a x45 to finish off not a x50 - equal to saiyans is fair, but humans are never as dominant as arcosians get to be in the early game. False SSJ - This is pretty cool and I like it, not much more to say there. Tao - This is also pretty cool and I like it, plus we have a player who is pretty clearly hoping to get something similar, albeit it earlier because this was secret at the time. Uub - I like this ... but it should be way higher than 500k (because that allows a majin to instantly jump in at the human endgame after being HIGHLY competitive throughout the rest of the game). I'm thinking like... 750k-1mil, even. Something ridiculous but theoretically possible. I would also like to say that I think the races which essentially become androids (most arcosians, alien B) should actually become androids in terms of transformation - Overdrive potential and all. Androids would still maintain their incredibly strong 'cannot be sensed' and 'return from death for cash' racial abilities as unique selling points, but I heavily dislike how arcosians and alien B just become 'second rate' androids in terms of transformation potential for the rest of their lifespan - especially if they are giving up a strong endgame to do it too. This is kind of its own point, but as it is semi-related to the current discussion here I thought I'd make note of it - it probably isn't worth a full thread all of its own. (8) I'm a little confused... getting your body back when you go to other world does cost shoki currently. and I guess? would certainly make it expensive, though I suspect people might not be happy about being 'stuck' in other world trying to buy back such a thing (you can only gain/keep shoki while you remain there, it converts to pl the moment you leave. there is also no shoki-enhancing equipment, indeed the whole reason shoki exists is to create a currency for the afterlife which cannot be enhanced through weights or such, cause the prices of other-world content is down-scaled to match this controlled rate). (9)And do remember these were designed as secrets. They are revealed now but they were created and balanced around people only finding them through committing to OOC weakness[often for a very long time], due to an IC motivation/justification which would drive this, such as a morally conciousness bio-android who rejects their own biology and will not kill, or a demon with amnesia; not even aware of their own special skill, or a saiyan who can never push through to the third level, no matter how hard they 'tried'(ICly speaking). You're right that it is patterned after humans delayed gratification model. (10) re; Arcosians - this is true, being secret it was buffed to be equal to humans x50, now the cats out of the bag some things may need to be reconsidered, as there's no longer a 'leap of faith' involved in getting there. re; Majins - I think 750k/mill might be stretching it a bit Refer to (5) from the Zexama comment though for a relevant note in this respect. (11) re; converted androids should get overdrive. I disagree here, overdrive is the 'cool thing' full androids get, if you want to have it you should have to ride the early game of an android instead of living in the Arcosian pent house. Early bird gets the worm and we don't want to give away to much of androids benefits or it leaves androids feeling less special (you'll also notice these converted 'cybercosians' also don't have the ki-sense immunity, based on canon. They do however keep their durability, as this is a share trait both arcosians and androids had and it was a minor buff I felt was nice to keep) Given the discussion on Mechanisation as a global mechanic, I'm a proponent of holding off on changing any of this til that is dealt with, but regarding Arcosians - their final trans should be AT LEAST x47. They are ahead of Saiyans (Arcosians' x10 is at-will but comes with a hefty penalty to gains, while Saiyans can just schedule all their fights for full moons if they want their x10) until 100k only, and then behind them for the REST of the game. Given that the reqs for achieving this final tier are to remain organic the whole game, leaving you with no access to forms above x16 for around 200k, I think it's totally fair. ... I do think that Bio-Android forms that don't utilise absorption should maybe be weaker, but easier to achieve. Getting absorbs has worked out to actually be pretty hard with the way things run here. Will speak more on this later. (12) Indeed, the gap was based off the gap humans have, slightly shorter but it did involve a leap of faith(back when they were hidden atleast). Originally it didn't have the extra x50 but I threw it in there for good measure when coming up with the design to balance the x16 (or x15) being a lower number, and them travelling all that way, sticking true to that oath despite lacking any forms, without ever falling to the temptation of mechanisation. (13) it was based on a similar gap to humans and secret arcosians, 250,000 with only the x3 form (max x8 with techs invested) at 20,000 being their only in-between. Admittedly it was again designed as a secret for those committed to the cause of denying who they were despite it seemly like there would be no compensation for this (definitely repeating myself with such notes, but it is certainly relevant) Some of these transformations that you've posted up need more clarification on achievement. Are we following the GT format for Super Saiyan Oozaru? Is this implying we're involving GT concepts and is it wanted, for that matter, considering Gt's been written off as more of a side story? What's the conditions for these other forms? I see, in particular (as I'm a hybrid player), that Hybrids get a x49 transformation for not following the other paths. What's the middle ground, or the rather, what's the 3rd circle in the Tri-Ven-Diagram? What will we call next 2 Arcosian forms, if we even want to make it so Arcosians get 2 forms for waiting up to 500,000? Why is it that Demons have to be going against the one trait they've got going for them that makes them relevant to the growth period? It seems as though they're intended to be punished the most, currently, with the other races having some sort of means to balance that out. Androids actually have the ability, as far as your document tells me, that they can still expand their power without using overdrive and becoming permanently mightier than most other races currently. Namekians going Demon, in particular, seems much more counter productive on what we'd want to see as an evil path for them to take, forgive me for sounding 'brash,' but it seems to me that Alien C's being given more possibility without something changing for them in the end. It feels as though the excel document of transformations feels extremely vague, in regards to what can, or could be doing for us. 3 sets of transformations sound sensible, but then you've got things that are simply feeling as though you're sending a screw into your brain to try and come up with something. This is probably coming off as antagonistic, but these are the questions I've been holding restrained when I saw the document. (14) GT is still non-canon, I don't really attribute ssj oozaru as a GT thing since it's kinda a no brainer. ( in filler the 'super saiyan of legend' was shown in what looked to be a golden oozaru silhouette), though I have always maintained GT did have a couple of quite neat ideas mostly marred by poor execution and the bad ideas placed around them (15) not entirely sure what the question is, but to clarify: Hybrids 'ssj3' (or if not saiyan whatever is the most applicable name, as they are flavoured based on dominant race) is x40 @ 400,000 (and mastered further to x44 at 450,000). This is kinda the 'default path'. IF they don't do this however, and they hold out till 450,000 without 'ssj3', and then suffer a saga defeat, they can unlock 'ultimate potential' instead, a x45 based on gohan's mystic form*. *(As you may be able to guess, this was originally a secret form that was instead added to public. So I adapted a third secret form.)If they got all the way to 500,000 without going for *either* of the above though, they could attain a x49 form. I have 'requires hidden potential' as a question mark cause originally this was for 'ultimate potential', and you can see it is the counterpoint to the earlier secret form above it which requires oozaru (making the two into mutually exclusive secrets) (16) re; what to call arcosians - does friezas golden form have a proper name? maybe that. re; Demons - refer to my reply to Liang (1) and (2) for the answer on that part re; Androids - don't quite understand what you mean re; Namekians - not quite sure I follow, but it was based off king piccolo (who was split from kami, but then defeated and sealed in the rice cooker ) re; Alien C - alien secret forms are more bland in general cause they already have the whole customisation thing going for them. But for Alien C their x18[12 def] is kinda like an alien version of Ussj, and by ignoring your two later forms and focusing exclusively on this bulk you eventually master it completely (so instead of 32 offensive [25 defense], you have 'trained up' your earlier bulky trans into a x33 form that has no defensive reduction) For hybrids, it says that there's a possible endgame x49 multiplier (Denying the last 2 previous transformations I think...?) but does that mean that a hybrid would have to only use the x6 for the entire game until 500k? I couldn't see that being possible unless they never fought, always their trainings up to 20k, and did 5 threads every week. All of that is unlikely to occur and them be worth anything as a fighter past 70k. Most of the hybrid transformation is geared towards the saiyan side, so what would the hybrids gain toward the demon side? (17) Haha, not quite that drastic, the denying both paths thing is in reference to their final transformations (refer to (15) above to hopefully shed some light) and you flavour your transformations visuals and name after whatever your dominant race (eg gohan was saiyan/human, but saiyan was dominant so he had 'super saiyan' and 'ssj2' and such as his form names and visual appearance. Pan on the other hand had her human side dominant, thus why she didn't ever get golden hair and green eyes - at least that's our little canon mechanic explanation for Souls anyway)
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Post by President Bao on Jul 3, 2015 15:40:21 GMT
... For False SSJ/Saiyan Soul, I'd recommend a x6. Half of SSJ, a very good early form, plus it makes Saiyans not the 'Sans Arcosian best', leaving that spot for Namekians. Not sure where the tail removal part comes into it, or if I like that, though I agree there needs to be a trigger. Arcosians I could see an alternative pathway for that doesn't involve their +16x transforms but rewards them large in the end. (18) the tail thing came from oozaru being one of saiyans early game assets, meaning a saiyan who you have committed to being without a tail[permanently] from very early on has a distinct disadvantage (no starter trans at all all the way untill 100,000), so the secret form was an offset to that. side note - @vi, Zuni and anyone else, link at top of post is a good visual reference for current form progression (19) Initially I had the 50 being that and the 45 to be for royal(because non-royals still keep the grade demerit trait due to never mastering their true power comfortably), but decided against it by allowing both to get the same non-revival forms. If False SSJ is gonna have the requirement of no tail by 10,000, then I think it should be either x7 or x8. This is a rather specific requirement, and could very quickly be missed if you're not careful. One or two threads and you might find yourself above 10K PL, in which case you're now locked out from the form. As well if we look at the transformation like its depiction in the movie, then it had a short duration. It wasn't quite as short as something like Gohan's one-shot rage attack, but it did have a automatic end time that came about prior to the fight's conclusion. The limited time frame might be the better balancing point for the transformation, rather than the no tail. ^refer to (18) above for relevant comment. (19) Essentially the form was added specifically for pure blooded saiyans who committed to not having a tail, the sharp cut-off pl was on purpose so that poeple couldn't 'double dip', being allowed to use oozaru, then lose it and get something better. Instead they very specifically had to pick to abandon the great ape and become what amoung saiyan society is considered humiliating and shameful, a tail-less weakling. Unlike hybrids pure saiyans have no second choice... well, they didn't until this reveal. (20) You may notice on Souls we avoid using 'time frames'/post counts for things like transformations, keeps things more satisfying and freeform. Personally I kinda think such limits are 'faux balance', they give the illusion of balancing something without actually balancing it properly. I've looked over the sheet and there's a lot that I don't understand. Why does hybrid get a "kidna lssj" trans and why do you have to have oozaru to get it? Does oozaru have something to do with the trans itself? Wasn't the "lssj" a pure breed? Why do you have to take hidden potential to get the x49 for hybrid? Wouldn't denying both paths be enough? I dont understand why the later trans would depend on earlier. Why do you have to loose tail for fssj? Also, why do you have to choose between hidden potential and oozaru to begin with for hybrids? If GT is noncanon on this site, how can you have a true golden oozaru form? Don't get me wrong, I totally love this trans, and wish hybrids got the option because I love oozaruing in general, but it doesn't make much sense being people have been told not to use GT reasoning before Why for bio android, does not absorbing give you a higher multiplier? Also, if the multiplier is 33 for imperfect, and it unlocks you being able to unlock perfect without absorb as well, then why is the x33 higher than the x28? You cant say that the x33 is for perfect, because nothing requires an absorb after that. If you can get the absorption model android from a trans, why not make the model available at the beginning? Why would you get a bonus for not using a skill that is one of the real perks of being a demon? This is all just based on a quick glance at the sheet. It's very confusing to me in general. Personally I think Fssj should be like x6 and not depend on a tail. The absorption model should be available from the get go. The golden oozaru should be reworked. Arcosians should get their trans unhidden, but x50 is a little much for them given the beginning play. Also, Im not to sure about reincarnation for majins. It seems to defeat the purpose of both races. (20) re; 'kinda lssj' meant what it was inspired by of sorts, it's not acctually meant to be lssj but my very rough idea at the time was just 'something that requires you to have taken the 'uncontrolled' form initially. The '250k and 300k forms it says you need to have not taken correlate with 'ssj2' if you were a saiyan hybrid, meaning that 'kinda lssj' was an alternative to 'ssj2'. Really though it had no specifically distinct flavour in mind, it just fit into the data as a blace I could make an offshoot. (21) re; x49 for hybrid - Refer to (17) and (15) for relevant notes there re; lose tail for fssj - Refer to (19) for relevant comment there (also cause goku in canon had his tail removed, and is the only pure saiyan who got the form, where as vegeta who had a tail never got the form ;P ) Re; hybrids chose - you always had to choose so that's nothing new, choices are fun and let you customise towards your playstyle/character type. You can't have your cake and eat it too, that's being a little greedy if you ask me re; Golden OOzaru - refer to (14) for my comment on that and sorry, golden ape is for real saiyans only, it's a recessive gene (22) It was designed with a higher multiplier cause it was a secret, and because it was much further into the game, meaning you needed to spend a long amount of time being weaker than other people (as you can see, it required 250,000pl and no absorbs, meaning you missed all transformations up to this point. and the 33 means you 'skip' perfect, you have metamorphased into a new kind of being, one which does not rely on absorption, so like perfection and yet different. Once you have that form, you can still unlock the 'power weighted' form and the 'super perfect' forms though(so you aren't quite at the end of the line yet, you just found a different way of getting there). Does that explain it? (23) because we don't have it as a sub-race I added it cause it was something I thought was cool, but which currently wasn't included. If at some point we added absorption model androids or other such things as a separate race altogether I would have simply modified the secret form accordingly. This site is ever-evolving, everything you see here has grown over time, through patches and iteration (24) refer to my reply to Liang (2) and (3) for the answer to that one. and lastly, re; arcosian should be unhidden - all the trans' are 'unhidden', that's why the sheet and this chat is currently about. Originally no one knew this stuff but the community voted and so now I am sharing it for everyone to know about Don't worry, it may seem a little confusing but that's just cause you've jumped in the deep end, perhaps to clarify; the sheet linked shows the current transformations on the left, and the new 'secret forms' which are now no longer secret on the right Feel free to keep asking questions till you're satisfied you have your bearings. To say nothing of the fact that Uub happened through a DBall wish, it's not an innate aspect of Majin biology.
This point is actually super sound. The Uub 'transformation' shouldn't be allowed since it was all based upon a wish not something Buu attained on his own. ^both in response to nic and hyo - (25) Not to get caught on technicalities but I feel perhaps the word wish has lead to some confusion - uub was the result of a request by goku. There was no wish to the dragon[the dragon was not even present and uub was not attirbuted to any wish], it was just goku blasting buu and saying 'I hope one day we meet again somehow'. It's not really any more of a stretch that any of the other forms we have, like ultimate potential or mechification. Also, comment (5) has a relevant note I suppose about one of the design intents. -------- Ha, quite a response, still, apologies for the wait regardless. Now, I must sleep. (edit: have split post for neatness)
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Jul 3, 2015 18:31:32 GMT
It might not have been the dragon but Goku summarizes that King Yemma might have stepped in and granted his wish I actually had to check on this one. I thought it was the DBs but it's not (It's still something supernatural though!)The point is, the 'Uub' trait isn't something that can be justified as unique to Majins
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 23:24:53 GMT
It might not have been the dragon but Goku summarizes that King Yemma might have stepped in and granted his wish I actually had to check on this one. I thought it was the DBs but it's not (It's still something supernatural though!)The point is, the 'Uub' trait isn't something that can be justified as unique to Majins Kid Buu was pure evil, and as it was put, pure is easier to change then mixed. So someone like Dr. Gero, who is evil but not completely pure evil, couldn't be changed. Kid Buu was evil incarnate from the beginning of time, so yes I agree, the Uub trait shouldn't even exist in my eyes. It was something unique to the character because of his situation.
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Post by Kayle on Jul 3, 2015 23:29:50 GMT
To be fair, in my eyes, the characters could be pure good or pure evil with their "good/evil" forms. If they use the fission mechanic especially. This would make less sense for an absorption, and even less sense if they got their Super form. So maybe it have a "must use fission to get good/evil form and not gain super form"? At least if you wanted to play by those rules. The whole pure being easier than non pure
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Post by Rukkora on Jul 5, 2015 16:19:51 GMT
I suggest that the Saiyan Soul transformation be a non-stackable x3 transformation available to all Saiyans at 10000 PL.
Saiyans without a tail could have access to a False Super Saiyan transformation at 10,000 PL, which would be a more easily-used x6 transformation that comes at the cost of the Oozaru transformation but is easier to use. It sort of makes up for a de-tailed Saiyan's inability to use Oozaru Control or Tail Mastery and gives them a bit of utility early on.
Additionally, I don't support the Uub transformation for Majin. The Majin transformations already have a trend of changing your character's personality that you'll have to prepare for upon creation, but having them race change into something else as a "transformation"? It seems like it'd just be easier/make more sense to just reincarnate your Majin as a human (or whatever) after death.
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Post by Hyoza on Jul 5, 2015 16:27:41 GMT
Saiyans as they stand are currently pretty well-balanced. I don't agree that they should get an x3 Saiyan Soul transformation from the get-go given that the first 100k is the only time in the game they really struggle to compete. After they get 100k they are either just behind or ahead of the average for the rest of the game at every tier. FSSJ post-10k for tailless Saiyans makes sense since they'd still have to go another 90k without Oozaru, but they really don't need an at-will x3 they can use any time before that IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 0:07:14 GMT
Saiyan soul is basically pride, no? Sounds interesting but it isn't really needed as much unless you're saying it'll be better to get this over FSSJ.
FSSJ for tailless kinda kill the reason for someone to want their tail back if they could use something like that unless it's going to have a drawback like it's a short burst then open for three turns due to fatigue or even half of what giant ape would give, like 5x power or 6x to match half SSJ. (Since that form is already limited AKA Need the moon, need 10k to control yourself, need to learn the false moon technique from someone--ALOT OF WORK FOR THE X10 than just slash off your tail and take the FSSJ route that would seem much more easier than the ape)
Even so, I would suggest it has a type of drawback so the players won't be able to spam it often or put themselves in a situation whereas they can use it without much recoil.
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