Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Oct 22, 2015 3:03:33 GMT
SO! I was doing some brainstorming after debating with Natto earlier and here's my suggested middle ground. Call it Nic's proposal if you will (feel free to tear it apart as well) - You only gain EXP/Zeni for the first 500 words you post. This would let the quality modifier outweigh the word soup/bloaty types. If you write more than 500 that'd be just gravy but it wouldn't count towards your overall score.
- Staff have the freedom to award visible bonus points at the end of the thread but they must be up front about it and specifically state why for the sake of transparency
- Solo "Training" would become Solo "Sagas" Once a month you'd get the opportunity to post up to 10,000 words to make a side story/adventure for your character. Solos should be used to tell stories that can only be told on your own (Gonna toss Wrath of Rime in there as an example) Rather than being needless work out sessions they should be adventures that help further your character. 3 Staff would grade these solos and give you a score from 100-15,000 which would be added to your total power/Zeni to, once again, avoid people from just dropping out 10k worth of slop.
- Shoki gains would be unrestricted by the month time limit and would be graded as they were.
This would keep power level but shift an emphasis on quality over quantity with the option to gain rewards if the grader thinks your work is particularly spectacular.
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Post by Kizuki on Oct 22, 2015 3:12:19 GMT
If it can't be helped, and a new system needs to be put in place then I suppose there isn't any other option?
But, at the moment we can still look at fine tuning the system that is already in please. In my opinion, various people have great points in a way to fix the current grading system.
I understand the tier system, but I believe most of the fun for people is seeing their PL number ("It's over 8,000!" is the correct phrase) and I'm guilty of that, too. As diminutive as my own may be at the moment compared to most .. lol .. though, in the grand scheme of things PL is a way to determine a character's "tier" in a way that is just more enjoyable, I think.
I stated before that the "tier" could be looked at OOCly for grading, looking at it like any sort of RPG / leveling up game. Dragon Quest, or more commonly Pokemon. When you first start out, getting your Pokemon to higher levels is a breeze, maybe even into their second form before you hit 3 Gym Badges! But after that, it gets tougher to level grind. It's expected that you'll need a ton more EXP to gain more levels than you previously did. The same can be said for here, I'm thinking.
All in all, perhaps we can change the way a character with a PL of 3,000 gets grade gains to make it different from a character who has a PL of 30,000, both different from someone who has a PL of 300,000 .. and so on. Is it probably more work for the staff? Yes. (Sorry, guys <3) but in a sense it prevents gains getting out of hand to those that are already pretty strong. Also, perhaps the automated grading tool could account for that as well?
I did like Natto's point of the gains of a newbie being greater than that of an experienced person. The same can be said with this. If a character with a 3k is training at length with someone else who has a PL of 30k, the higher PL character gains very little from this exchange while the lower level character does. Again, just something else to think about.
In my opinion, the issue is that the grading is the same for people on all levels. Where certain gains should be scaled back by a certain PL for minimal training / everyday slice of life events like fishing or walking around they are not. Changing how certain things are looked at and how gains are made could over-complicate the grading process, so I could see why the staff wouldn't be a fan of various different forms of grading, but it was just a thought.
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Post by Letrune on Oct 22, 2015 3:28:46 GMT
One question. How close should this thing be to canon stuff? I believe the canon got a very bad case of message what you guys seem to try and fix. Would that be a solution that the huge differences play each other out?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 3:48:41 GMT
(Is Aspa btw)
Would have posted sooner, but I was severely tired earlier and still am tired.
I am absolutely against Tier Based systems. Trust me, I've been on a lot of sites that use them. Yes, it may help with 'artificial power level grinding', but are you absolutely willing to do even more work than what you're already doing? I'm saying that, because as of now I've been waiting for grades for Aspa for Twenty Days due to behind the scenes work by staff members, and the T2G thread is still stockpiling threads to grade. What you're proposing with the Milestone and Tier system will force Staff Members to do even more work with Milestone applications to grading threads.
This does not work on sites with a huge member populous unless you want an army of Staff Members or Volunteers to make this work.
It works sometimes on small sites, but is very damaging to players like me who only want to have fun roleplaying. I'm not saying get rid of the Milestone stuff, that would work out with having consistent goals for characters and players. I know I'm someone that is very inconsistent when it comes to my characters. I am very indecisive and lack motivation to follow through with plots and characters.
But a tier based system would turn casual roleplayers away that just want to roleplay to have fun, like me. And from what I understand from the tier system is you're going to force characters to train. Look at me, I've had Aspa for three-four months now and he's only at a 86K power level. Yes, at the beginning I was doing 2-3 solos a week. But that never really got me anywhere.
What I'm saying is: implement the Milestone system with rewards like Items, Zeni, Transformations, Power Level, based on the level of difficulty of the Milestone. Redefine the way Staff members grade, what Nic said about only grading 500 words per post is good. Limit the Word Count on Solos, or limit the amount of Solos you can dish out per week. Nic as Maeve gained 44K PL with a single solo! That is more than a little ridiculous. Maybe even having a cap on gains per thread, as well as limiting the amount of threads someone can be in at a single point in time.
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
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Post by Zucceta on Oct 22, 2015 3:54:51 GMT
Aspa, I've told you that the reason T2G is backed up is because we're revising the current system slightly anyway.
We've already put limits on solo threads; didn't do much.
The casual RPer doesn't want to have to rub out a hundred solos or trivial threads to have fun within a community story. Tier system would be much easier to escalate if said RPer only has time for a few threads.
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Post by Tomoroko on Oct 22, 2015 10:13:26 GMT
Well, to be fair, this is a fully democratic site right? So I think at the very least it skills be put to a vote with the entire community before it's fully implemented. wodsouls.freeforums.net/thread/572/mean-fully-democraticI mean, that link there is one of the biggest reasons I joined the site... If the community as a whole goes for this change I'll give it a try... But to put effort into my rps and not advance like I have been isn't too appealing. I'm not aiming to be too dog, and I don't think I've been spamming out solos or dedicating myself to just one group of people, I've rped with tons who've shown interest
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Oct 22, 2015 10:38:26 GMT
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Post by Arlic Valliere on Oct 22, 2015 10:47:15 GMT
I'm against it.
Takes Staff a month to grade regular PL threads, can't even imagine the dead lock time for the Tier Theory. It's fun seeing your Power Level go up as it does, and it's simple. People who write more should get more, and people who write better should get more too.
If it ain't broke, don't break it.
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Post by Natto on Oct 22, 2015 11:03:28 GMT
Nicolas Mclendon I know it changed, but when we find advertising outside of the board, the description sorts of says it is fully democratic. I know it changed due to the decision of people, but the board should announce it clearly the system in use in order to not confuse the new users. Sorry for straying from the topic
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 22, 2015 11:05:22 GMT
Aye, that's something that needs to be taken out of the advertisement.
Back on topic... Well, I'm actually just waiting to see the idea's rough draft so I can have a spark to come up with how it'd work out with the races. I'm referring to the mechanical set up.
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Oct 22, 2015 11:23:43 GMT
I'm against it. Takes Staff a month to grade regular PL threads, can't even imagine the dead lock time for the Tier Theory. It's fun seeing your Power Level go up as it does, and it's simple. People who write more should get more, and people who write better should get more too. If it ain't broke, don't break it. Aspa, I've told you that the reason T2G is backed up is because we're revising the current system slightly anyway. It is broke though because padding is being rewarded over quality writing. Just because you can stretch a post out several thousands of words doesn't mean you deserve to get more in return. That's silly because a lot of the time the stretching out is just reiteration of the content posted by the person above you. Reading through some threads to grade them is like mental gymnastics sometimes. Going by the 'pay by word' style generally leads to dry bloated works (Look at any Charles Dickens book ever.) The current system is open to be exploited so that's why changes are being proposed. I've seen people plot their word counts to get the highest possible gains and that's fucked up and ruins the spirit of roleplay. Complaining about the speed of grades needs to stop too, that is super obnoxious (especially considering we've mentioned time and time again for the last few weeks at the very least that we're currently working on tweaking the current system as Rev has mentioned here.)
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Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
Zeni: 849
Shoki: 2,965
Tag: @gagelange10
OOC Name: Gage
Posts: 1,232
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Post by Mayze on Oct 22, 2015 12:45:15 GMT
A major change like this should be voted on by the entire community, not just the staff.
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Post by Raisu Hanamura on Oct 22, 2015 13:08:46 GMT
SO! I was doing some brainstorming after debating with Natto earlier and here's my suggested middle ground. Call it Nic's proposal if you will (feel free to tear it apart as well) - You only gain EXP/Zeni for the first 500 words you post. This would let the quality modifier outweigh the word soup/bloaty types. If you write more than 500 that'd be just gravy but it wouldn't count towards your overall score.
- Staff have the freedom to award visible bonus points at the end of the thread but they must be up front about it and specifically state why for the sake of transparency
- Solo "Training" would become Solo "Sagas" Once a month you'd get the opportunity to post up to 10,000 words to make a side story/adventure for your character. Solos should be used to tell stories that can only be told on your own (Gonna toss Wrath of Rime in there as an example) Rather than being needless work out sessions they should be adventures that help further your character. 3 Staff would grade these solos and give you a score from 100-15,000 which would be added to your total power/Zeni to, once again, avoid people from just dropping out 10k worth of slop.
- Shoki gains would be unrestricted by the month time limit and would be graded as they were.
This would keep power level but shift an emphasis on quality over quantity with the option to gain rewards if the grader thinks your work is particularly spectacular.
I feel this is a good compromise and one that I personally support. I think we have a great system in PL, but as others have said before, it most definitely needs tweaking. I think that Nic's proposal represents the best middle ground without needing to reinvent the wheel.
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Post by Kizuki on Oct 22, 2015 13:23:17 GMT
Tier based or not, the focus will always be, "I have X amount of Y left until I'm a SSJ!" I'm admitting that as someone who plays a Saiyajin myself, that's something that pops up constantly and all I seem to see coming from anyone. Point is, most people are not here to push the story along at all. They're here to have fun and create a larger than life, strong character -- or in the very least a character with at least 100k PL. So, in my opinion, having a milestone system where you leave it up to the player to determine if a milestone has been achieved is going to create tons and tons of threads asking to be looked at, begging to be graded so a new tier can be achieved. This is probably worse than having numerous posts filled with fluff for max PL gains in my opinion.
I'll stand by the fact that I think CERTAIN POSTS need to be graded for PL. State it's a training post before hand, limit solo training posts to only 2-3 times a week. If a character wants to wander around and ponder life, think about their past, how much they hate someone else, anything that ISN'T TRAINING they should NOT gain PL for it. Yes, I realize this is being very specific, but two characters hanging out during "Netflix and Chill" shouldn't gain any sort of PL to said characters.
If the grading is more strict, then the fluff would probably be taken out as people will begin to realize pumping tons of words into a post won't do much for them. I'm still a big fan of scaling back gains on stronger characters as opposed to weaker characters, or maybe only grading up until a certain point as far as WC goes as Nic and Natto had suggested. At some point, even Vegeta and Goku hit a limit that only training with each other at max power could benefit the both of them. Goku training with a teenage Goten who only wanted to go on dates with girls did nothing for him. Training with an insanely powerful Oob would.
Also, not a big fan of having a 150x gravity chamber at one's disposal 2 times a week once they purchase it. I see we've implemented a battery system so the Dragon Radar isn't abused, why not do the same for a gravity chamber? Include a Power Cell purchase or some other sort of power supply in order to do gravity training. Make it fairly priced so there is a focus on Zeni posts as opposed to PL posts. Maybe even give a certain amount of uses to weights, as well. In RPG games, items become useless over time. Certain items have a 1 time use as well (see Pokémon "X Attack" and items of the sort I never bothered using since I played Pokémon Red for the first time in '98). Weights could be those items. Would also prevent people from trading in and getting MORE items to get gains even MORE easily.
Just my two cents.
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Post by Arlic Valliere on Oct 22, 2015 13:23:46 GMT
Then it'd take literal MONTHS to get anywhere. Even when I got here the first thing you see is 'Totally Democratic forum' and now the Moderators come out saying it's not. It's like that little rule is hidden somewhere.
I thought there was always a grading trend, not just word count, to solo thread training. A quarter of the series was people training by themselves. If you want to make stricter grading rules that makes sense. So does the Tier system, but there's no reason not to have both. Doing ONE solo training a month and having three admins grade it is impossible, everyone here is going to do a solo thread, and the time it'd take three people to grade it and make an agreement would just slow the system down even more.
And I get it 'reworking the system, please wait'. Everyone does, but at the same time it's putting a visible stall in the entire forum.
But something like this really should be an entire community vote, not just the admins. Since most of them would be top tier anyway, they don't have anything to lose. While everyone else would be set back.
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