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Post by Kaile on Oct 21, 2016 21:53:10 GMT
So... I've been thinking about this recently and, I'M NOT TRYING TO CAUSE DRAMA, but I've been wondering how those that aren't end-game are going to do villainous plots? With so many people either already at end-game or close to it (And seemingly all of them being 'Good Guys', it's left me to wonder how someone who wants to be a villain is going to survive or be viable without waiting until extreme late game to be of a viable threat to anyone. As it stands for me to work Kaile's plot to it's conclusion I HAVE to wait until SSJ3 minimum to be a viable threat to anyone, and at that point I'm sure everyone who I would've been will be far passed that point. MSSJ3 is the final trans at a x45, which at base would put you around 22m or so, And while that seems super strong by that point there'll likely be at least 3-4 'Good Guys' that're passed that (1 of them being Bing who'll have a x50 as a human) plus others.
The Sealed Creature thing is great for those at late game as they're the only people with the PL to protect it until it reaches t's full power (several pages later), however for those of us stuck down at the 300k or less it's almost impossible for us to really make a villain plot that doesn't require a very long time to even get going. Kaile's plot is lucky since it takes a lot of planning and she has to search for all the different Z-Fighters and she can grow along the way, but unless a plot takes a REALLY long time like that I can't see any plot that involves a character being a villain really surviving or becoming anything without at least 6 months or more worth of plotting, planning, and consistent threads. To me at least this sort of incentives people to go the good route instead of the villain route.
Edit: What I'm essentially trying to do with this post is find a way to incentivize people to make Villains as right now only Good Guys are really 'rewarded' that much. Villains just kinda get the shaft since you can't do any form of Saga/Open DE without risking instant death the moment the thread is started.
Edit 2: I don't know the way Shoki is given out (As far as how it's graded), however another reason I believe Good Guys are rewarded more is from the fact that Death really doesn't mean anything at all. If a planet isn't destroyed then they can just 'come back' and nothing happens for the villain. All their work is just 'gone' and usually, from what I've seen, most villains don't really have as large a following as the good guys seem too. I don't know exactly how many the Invasion thread that Zucceta did was but iirc the Good Guys had an overwhelming number behind them. So while yeah the Villain can also come back, chances are the good guys will be strong enough to keep defeating them. To top this off when a Saga is started since it's an Open DE the heroes can go into the HBTC and get a HUGE boost to their PL from a single thread, Because of the nature of Saga's they can be dragged out for quite some time and that means those in the HBTC have quite a bit of time to train up and get far stronger than the villain IF the villain is somehow strong enough to take on eveyrone without a sweat (Which is HIGHLY unlikely).
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Post by Cipher 24 on Oct 21, 2016 22:08:04 GMT
I can definitely see your point. Up until not that long ago, the main villain of the site had been Zucceta, but now with her reforming...sort of, we've sort of hit a lull as far as any real threats are going.
I think one way to possibly help with this is to spread out the DEs and threats, particularly to areas less frequented for RP (such as Namek, Arcose, etc). After all, most of the heroes are on Earth, so not only would this encourage play in other areas, but might also prevent every hero swarming to one location when a major DE breaks out, giving new villains some potential breathing room to grow. Again, not entirely sure how well it will work, but it's a suggestion.
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Post by Kaile on Oct 21, 2016 22:16:02 GMT
I've asked about that before, however people are freely allowed to just travel there if you do that because "Anyone with planet-destroying capabilities can be sensed on other planets" according to staff. This means you can't just hop planets to one that doesn't have them and do as you wish, and since travelling through space takes at most 24 hours and an Open DE would have to be open for 3 days, It makes it very difficult to actually pull that kind of thing off.
Yes they have to have a reason, but if what the staff said is true and they can just sense you it makes it even more difficult. On top of this that doesn't really offer anything in the way of Low-PL Villains getting anything, destroying a planet doesn't give you any sort of PL/Zeni boost and you can't 'take over' a planet for any Zeni boost either. This idea was shot down by the staff when Lettuce was asking about it (Or something very similar), For awhile Kaile's plot was at a lul because I couldn't get a good IC reason to take her from Vegeta to Earth, and then a few months later after I had found a reason I was informed that reason was basically null and void. This causes some loopholes in her plot line since Koldar was misinformed about information Kaile couldn't of had, this information was told to a staff members character which is why I had every reason to believe it was fine. Thankfully she has plenty of reason to be there NOW that she's been there for awhile but before then I had no real reason to go to earth as any open DE I made she'd just get (And still would) insta-gibbed by 1 of the 20+ characters that can easily 1 shot her with a flick of their wrist.
Because of this you can't really do any form of DE on the site without being able to go toe-to-toe with numerous opponents all of whom are likely to be as strong if not stronger than yourself. This causes some form of discrepancy in who can and can't really do Saga-plots, in order for Kaile to get SSJ2, she has to have a Saga Defeat.... Except that if I do any type of Saga (Which are always Open DE's mind you) my chances fo living long enough for this to be able to get triggered are slim to none because of how many end-game good guys there are that can flick their wrist and kill Kaile without breaking a sweat.
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Post by Fleece on Oct 21, 2016 22:28:58 GMT
IMO just do the villainous acts and die if you die. The pl gains in hell are superior in every way and the only reason that it sucks to go there is because people let fear deter them from going there (making it hard to find group threads). If people just did what they wanted and accepted a loss they could get to this sweet pl gaining zone that they are denying themselves. That would be the easiest way to catch up aside from the fact that top tier players get grade reductions/etc.
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Post by Kaile on Oct 21, 2016 22:40:25 GMT
Here's the problem with that: Solo threads give less gains. AL gains aren't as powerful as 150x Grav Chamber gains (Which takes awhile to get too), and you would STILL have to do consistent threads every day. Solo threads also can only be used 5/week, after that you can't be given gains from them. Since they give less gains in the first place this significantly hinders your progress, and since there are very few people in the AL let alone in Hell you'd get 5 threads a week usually, this stomps muse hard since solo threads are entirely based off what YOU yourself can come up with in a solo thread.
I'm not sure how the rules for playing NPC's that're in hell go or how combat itself goes since you can't technically die in the AL (Unless you actually can which makes it even worse), but going to the AL isn't something people are 'afraid' of, it's the fact it stomps your muse because there are so few people actually there. Also being 1 shot over and over and over by almost everyone isn't fun, You have ot actually get your trigger for SSJ2 as well BEFORE you die since it has to be IN the saga thread itself. Being 1 shot means you CAN'T get that trigger.
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Post by Fleece on Oct 21, 2016 23:12:06 GMT
My point is that if people quit worrying about dying, you wouldn't have to do solos in hell because more people would be dead to thread with. Also a solo in hell gets the same bonus as a group thread in the living world. You can also grav train in hell and get the al bonus which does stack with grav. Unless it has changed I believe you are exempt from the 5 solo rule when dead as well.
150 grav+Little Man Bonus+after life bonus+social thread is the absolute highest bonus that can be stacked (other than zenkai maybe). Even after LMB wears off this combo is superior to anything else you could possibly do.
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Post by Kaile on Oct 21, 2016 23:33:21 GMT
I get what you're puttin' down now, See I wasn't aware of a LMB or that you could use items while dead. Not that either of those affect me really as I've stated before that I'm not really afraid of Kaile being killed, the real thing is the Saga Defeats... I can't get SSJ2 trigger without a Saga defeat, and you can't do a saga thread without a 90% chance that someone that can flick their wrist and 1 shot someone that isn't at end game dropping in.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Oct 22, 2016 3:01:16 GMT
You can get SSJ2 Trigger without a Saga Defeat.
There are plenty of ways for villains to be plot-relevant, if you pick your battles and operate wisely. Just look at SCAR. None of them are world-beaters, but they now rule a planet and their characters have had some of the greatest impact on the site in terms of storyplane changes, moreso than a lot of very high PL people. They've done this by being very smart in the way they operate in the story -- a shadowy organization that is hard to find, that is building utility and laying out groundwork.
People get too worried about losing. If you're too afraid to lose, you're never going to win. People in Souls have won against the odds before, and they will again, if they plan and take smart chances.
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Post by Plato on Oct 22, 2016 3:10:23 GMT
*What about me i took over a planet with 20k* But in all seriousness, i will say i have one issues regarding with de's in general, well 2 but the first one is no one fault, just how much time they take, i understand unlike me everoyne has a life. anyone enough putting me down my second issues is that let say i do a de on beppa and no one is on beppa, everyone gonna flock their, which honestly to me makes little sense, really it would only take a couple hours to take over a planet if their is no one of relative strength, so what i'm getting at is that reduce the time for people who are not on said world, if you have a reason to be their, like you were tracking the person and expressed that in a thread, then i think that is fine, this does not apply of course if everyone on earth and a de starts their it makes perfect sense for anyone to get their. Anyhow why i'm bringing this up is my experiences with de's. I been in a couple already, but my second de which was when the sse attacks konats had some problems, mind you it was still good infact because of people coming it was great, and allowed scar to get a foothold on konats but people such as presto and sorta breech (I know he said they planed to go but regardless seem kinda timely they went right when a major battle was going on), not saying this is bad, i'm glad breech and scar went to konats and took it over but at the same time, we have people gonna be using presto on this, who had no reason to go to the de other then it would help her get massive gains with absorbs. So if i'm gonna be my honest judgement, for de that your not on the planet of, say earth to konats, give less time for people to join the de, that way people don't join when it almost over to take advantage. Like a 1 day timer, so they have to be on their way before the de even starts, (as long as they know by not metagaming and bla bla) anyhow that is my suggestion.
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Post by Kaile on Oct 22, 2016 3:14:49 GMT
Not going into Open DE's or DE's in general isn't really 'smart', it's just them not doing it. I also very, VERY hesitantly would want to refer to them as villains as taking over a singular planet isn't really 'villainous'. I could take over a planet without even being evil!
The problem is 'winning against the odds' isn't possible when your plot won't allow it for it because of aspects that're simply beyond your control. Take Kaile's plot for instance, Her plot ISN'T going to be possible wihtout SSJ3, I would also like to point out that NONE of the SSJ forms require a saga-anything however for certain people, like bio androids, it's REQUIRED to get their final trans AT ALL. When you have people who can flick their wrist and 1 shot you that makes it literally impossible to do, A Saga is an OPEN DE, meaning anyone at any time can join for almost any reason. This means that, regardless of good or bad, you HAVE to somehow remain alive in an OPEN de long enough to get the trigger which isn't likely with as many high PL people as there are.
Everything that has to do with Kaile can be done in time that isn't the problem, Kaile's plot can largely be done without most of the site being involved, however it DOES require her finding the identity of every Z-Fighter which in itself is going to take a long time.
For Kaile this means that her plot is easily doable without a saga ever happening, They can all be done in Closed DE's easily, but that's boring as fuck. Doing a Closed DE means that only a certain number of people can join as after it's closed nobody else can join (72 hours). Open DE's are far more fun as they provide a lot more risk, As I've stated before I don't care if Kaile dies as I'm planning on her dying at least once or twice during her entire plot. The problem lies in what if someone wants to make a villain like Cell? One who openly opposes the entirety of the Z-Fighters? They HAVE to wait until they get to their last trans and THEN somehow live long enough to get that saga defeat.
Overall the system really doesn't support those low-pl villains from existing unless they operate in such a way as to never be susceptible to a DE, once they're in a DE they're basically fucked. Yes you can run from a DE the moment it's attempted to be initiated, but that's their only defense against being 1 shot. If they're ever put into a DE then they won't be able to escape unless everyone involved LETS them and for some that simply wouldn't be an option as there ARE characters on the site that wouldn't allow it.
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Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
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Post by Pipa on Oct 22, 2016 5:13:11 GMT
(This is Fleece) My only other thing on this matter is that it is very possible to play a villain without having much PL. This character enslaved an entire village after destroying it (he battled Hinawa in its ruins). He also wandered around and ate npcs before finally getting his arms lobbed off by Mimikku . He also joined forces with Zuccetta for a short time, which were the closest things to friends that he could have had. He was also the evil half of Scargot , who played the sites kami at the time, and we had various dream interactions with one another as we were two halves (we preplotted it at character creation granted). Maybe Pipa didn't have too big of an impact (he was like 40k or something before they tx off his pl), mainly because I felt like he had done pretty much everything I really wanted him to do... the only regret I have with him is I should have let Nin kill him before I scrapped him. I only did do one de thread (did destroy a couple buildings), but I was still able to advance him in a villainous way without really even being subtle about it. I made alliances here and there with stronger bad guys who bailed me out of a few sticky situations.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 15:27:28 GMT
You know... Originally, I was going to have my character Denim be possibly villainous. Unfortunately, I saw no point in doing that until I recently considered joining the Arcosian Empire (which has yet to still go through) because if you look at Konats as an example Plato got very lucky in his world conquering. I think, if I remember it correctly, he held the place for about three weeks to a month. I actually think I remember him stating when he actually conquered the place he got lucky. Anyway, after that short period of time all of SCAR came in and took it from him resulting him luckily then being allowed to leave and not get killed like Articho and Arias were.
In terms of my character having to take this many risks just to cause some damage in the universe only to have people come in behind and save the day pretty frequently or thwart efforts you made just doesn't feel right at times. But oh well... Cipher is potentially going back there now to kill them if he learns what happened there.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Nov 6, 2016 7:27:41 GMT
With so many heroic characters around, it's best to plan from the shadows... Or from HFIL, in my case! Let the universe turn itself on its head and come strolling in like a bat outta hell, offering a path to peace.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Nov 7, 2016 7:43:46 GMT
Do you need find it highly artificial that you've planned your characters actions and "plot" ahead of time?
Surely that drowns the purpose of the roleplay site?
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Post by Taro on Nov 7, 2016 8:56:29 GMT
I'm new here, so take this with a grain of salt, but from my experience with many other websites, I do think that the above is how the system operates, or at least the behavior it encourages. As far as the system is concerned, starting an open, DE thread at a low PL is asking for death from an end-game hero. I think this is a problem. It's not really fair to the players playing the villains, and it's not fair to the players playing a low-PL opposing said villain. The players playing the villain get instantly vaporized if a high PL drops in, and the low-PL heros do not get a chance to strife against the villain before the villain gets vaporized by the PL million+ hero.
The solution may be making more villains of various power levels and spreading them out over various locations. This is the most natural and least "rules-y" of my ideas, but I am new and don't know if the userbase is up to the task as far as the number of users go.
Alternatively there could be a "Goku timer" sort of thing. If the villain's power level is significantly lower than the high-PL hero that wants to join the thread, then the villain has X amount of turns to complete their goal, do some damage, or escape. On the other hand, the lower PL heroes have to buy time, fend off, or keep the villain from escaping while they wait for their savior to arrive. This could give low PL characters and villains a chance to shine and strife against each other on more-or-less even terms until the "goku(s)" arrives, but also not exclude end-game heroes from coming in, Goku-style, and dropping the hammer on the villain. Likewise, smart and crafty villains may be able to complete their mission and further their goals before the "Goku" arrives, giving some incentive to stay around and not flee at the first sign of danger when a thread turns DE. It's true-to-source, if a bit artificial in implementation.
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