Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Aug 16, 2015 22:39:26 GMT
Recently, Athren has come to me and those he offended and apologised profusely for his attitude and actions. He has politely asked for a second chance. He seems genuine, and that is definitely a factor in his favor for this case.
Discussion among members of staff, both in general and regarding Athren personally, has been ambivalent, but leans towards favoring second chances. Stipulations would involve his unban being started at 90% warning level.
Should a 100% warning level bar be truly 'permanent'?
Should their be a system for appeals for these banned members (such as another member vouching for, or setting up meetings with, the banned member and the staff team)?
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Post by Kaula on Aug 16, 2015 22:43:49 GMT
I don't mind, as I said in the staff chat. I'm all for second chances to people who really mean it. And he seemed to really mean his apology.
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Nicolas Mclendon
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The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Aug 16, 2015 22:44:14 GMT
I don't know the guy but I voted 'yes' in favor of giving others second chances.
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Post by Natto on Aug 16, 2015 22:45:02 GMT
I'm always leaning towards giving people second chances. I think permanent punishment is too harsh most of the times. But, in order for someone being gifted with a second chance, it needs to come with some precautions. In my honest opinion, in order to "un-ban" someone, that person needs to truly apologizes, the way the staff can actually believe in as much as to vouch for them, such as on this case and, on top of that come back with a 90% ban seems fair enough, since it's a second chance and that person will really need to deserve it.
Then, for someone to be un-banned, in my opinion, they would need: 1) To truly apologize; 2) Have at least a reliable member to vouch for them (a member with low warning % or none at all - Imo up to 50% would be okay); 3) Come back with 90% warning.
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Post by Tania on Aug 16, 2015 22:49:55 GMT
I'm all for second chances, and attempting to implement a system for people who recognize what they did was wrong and are making an effort to improve their behavior is something I can get behind. However, since it was originally supposed to be a perm ban there would have to be some heavy restrictions placed on the returning member. I don't like being terribly strict, but this is kind of a special case since being permabanned means that you've been a repeat offender as far as breaking the rules. Here's what I would like to propose as far as restrictions for second chances:
1. They only get one second chance. If the person winds up permabanned for a second time, it's tough luck for them if they decide they want to try again.
2. They need to write an apology post to the site reflecting on why they were banned so that we know that they understood EXACTLY what behavior of theirs was unacceptable. Not only does this show that they knew what they did was wrong, but it also makes sure that they were aware of why they were punished in the first place. It helps eliminate confusion on the off chance that the returning member wasn't really sure why what they did wasn't okay.
3. They come back with a warning level of 90 and need to be watched carefully to make sure they don't go back down the path that got them banned in the first place.
4. There's absolutely no chance of them ever becoming part of the staff since they already blew that.
5. I'd recommend them starting as a fresh new character. This is supposed to be somewhat of a new start for them, and I think they shouldn't be able to jump right back into playing a powerful character after they had chosen to break the rules.
Obviously these restrictions are up for debate, but I feel they they would be necessary in allowing people a second chance.
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Post by Natto on Aug 16, 2015 22:55:48 GMT
I agree with most Tania suggested: 1) Yes! Just ONE second chance! 2) Public apologize is fair enough, and if somebody doesn't want to do that, then I have my doubts they are truly sorry. 3) Like I said. 4) I agree with that, since they went as far as to get a perm-ban. But I can't agree on this one: 5) Starting over with a new character. IMO I don't think it can be related since, even though the user did things that made him get perm-banned, it doesn't null the effort he made with a character and I know how much emotional effort someone can put in their character. I think if we (i mean, the board!) allow someone to come back, they should be able to keep their character.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Aug 16, 2015 22:59:55 GMT
I agree with Natto and Tania in that they should be brought back upon site review and consideration, and a long cooling off period, just like this, with some caveats like a warning of 90% and an apology, so they can't later say that they were right all along, or something, and defeat the purpose of the reconciliation.
I'm fine with Athren keeping his character with no restrictions. PL is just a number, and if he wants to revive Athren and reinvolve himself with plot it would be better to allow him to do so rather than to restrict his RP access.
I too felt like his attempt at reconciliation is genuine. We've all had dark and moody periods in our life, his infractions weren't that gross or over-the-top (more of just an anger issue than a genuine attitude issue imo), and I'm all for second chances.
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Xanthon
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Post by Xanthon on Aug 16, 2015 23:04:35 GMT
I'm always leaning towards giving people second chances. I think permanent punishment is too harsh most of the times. But, in order for someone being gifted with a second chance, it needs to come with some precautions. In my honest opinion, in order to "un-ban" someone, that person needs to truly apologizes, the way the staff can actually believe in as much as to vouch for them, such as on this case and, on top of that come back with a 90% ban seems fair enough, since it's a second chance and that person will really need to deserve it. Then, for someone to be un-banned, in my opinion, they would need: 1) To truly apologize; 2) Have at least a reliable member to vouch for them (a member with low warning % or none at all - Imo up to 50% would be okay); 3) Come back with 90% warning. Alrighty this is pretty much my opinion with the exception of Tania's 5th suggestion which I have struck through to indicate such. I feel like the first four are a good enough punishment to not devoid their character because they did put work into their person despite the many rule breaks, and I think it would just be a back breaker to have that reset along with the other suggestions.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Aug 16, 2015 23:14:52 GMT
I really like Natto's and Tania's ideas, and my procedure for people being brought back would be the following:
1. After no less than three months of being banned, a banned player is eligible to be recommended for reinstatement. A recommendation can only be made by a player who has played for longer than 1 month, with a warning level of 50 or lower.
2. Staff review. Banned player is reviewed by at least three staff members. If the infraction isn't considered egregious, the banned player can go up for a site-wide vote. A player is considered an egregious violator if they were banned following a permanent attitude problem that was extremely detrimental to the site, gross behavioral misconduct, or cheating.
3. Site votes. If the votes passes with a simple majority after 3 days (72 hours) of voting, the player is reinstated under the following conditions:
A) A genuine public apology, issued on the General Board by the player. Once the apology is made, which lists the reasons for the ban and why they are apologizing, the player will then be ready to RP on their characters.
B) A warning level of 90%, whose degradation timer begins on the day of reinstatement.
A ban may never be lifted from a player more than once.
I think these rules will have to be the subject of a site-wide vote, as it'd technically be a reformation of the warning system, which is something that the new staff powers cannot alter without public approval. But I don't think anyone would object to doing it ad hoc in Athren's case until the new rules can be officially instated.
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Post by Natto on Aug 16, 2015 23:17:42 GMT
IMO, Vi-Poi just summarized it perfectly! I'm all up to that!
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Post by Tania on Aug 16, 2015 23:19:31 GMT
Sounds good to me.
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
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Post by Vi-Poi on Aug 16, 2015 23:28:13 GMT
Added a one-shot deal clause at the very end.
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Xanthon
Rising Soul
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Post by Xanthon on Aug 16, 2015 23:32:22 GMT
I really like Natto's and Tania's ideas, and my procedure for people being brought back would be the following:
1. After no less than three months of being banned, a banned player is eligible to be recommended for reinstatement. A recommendation can only be made by a player who has played for longer than 1 month, with a warning level of 50 or lower. 2. Staff review. Banned player is reviewed by at least three staff members. If the infraction isn't considered egregious, the banned player can go up for a site-wide vote. A player is considered an egregious violator if they were banned following a permanent attitude problem that was extremely detrimental to the site, gross behavioral misconduct, or cheating. 3. Site votes. If the votes passes with a simple majority after 3 days (72 hours) of voting, the player is reinstated under the following conditions: A) A genuine public apology, issued on the General Board by the player. Once the apology is made, which lists the reasons for the ban and why they are apologizing, the player will then be ready to RP on their characters. B) A warning level of 90%, whose degradation timer begins on the day of reinstatement. A ban may never be lifted from a player more than once. A ban may never be lifted from a player more than once.
I think these rules will have to be the subject of a site-wide vote, as it'd technically be a reformation of the warning system, which is something that the new staff powers cannot alter without public approval. But I don't think anyone would object to doing it ad hoc in Athren's case until the new rules can be officially instated.
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Post by Natto on Aug 16, 2015 23:35:57 GMT
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