Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 7, 2015 16:19:55 GMT
*Waves his android flag and high fives Koramund* Not to derail the thread, but if we're going to balance the Arcosian changes with the other species I would like to bring up the plight of the lowly robot. Did Androids used to be a lot stronger in early game or something? Because right now their transformation tier comparisons are kinda yucky like this: Starting Out: Quite easily the absolute worst. They have a (x3) Overdrive which is 2nd to Alien A as the lowest of the early xforms, but they can only use the Overdrive very sparingly, which makes me not want to use it all Far out-classed by their biotic cousins. Early Game: They peak up a bit around 50,000-70,000 with a (x6) transformation. Out paces Bio-Androids here if the Bio hasn't absorbed someone. However, they are still outpaced by Namekian's x7 50,000 transformation, matched by Aliens at 70k. Tier Two: At 100,000, the Androids receive an early Second Tier xform, the lowest at x9. 20,000 PL later, their Bio-cousins get a x13. This is balanced a bit by absorption. Tier Three: At tier 3 at 150,000 they are met or exceeded by almost every other race at x16, which manages to eek out only Bio's by x1 and matched by the Arcosian The Arcosian has some pain here to catch up, but they have enjoyed a very nice early game and are able to subsist with a x15/x12 late Second Tier at 150k. Tier Four: Tied second to last at x22, only outpacing Namekians, who pay a price for their early good xforms. Tier Five: Here they get their first good tier at x31. Still outpaced by Namekians and Bio-Androids though. Tier Six: Stuck at the very bottom with the Arcosians and Demons, both who got really great early games, but alas, the lowly Android did not. Although they get some early xforms compared to others, there is never a point where the Androids are on top, and every transformation except for the Tier Five they are at the bottom or right near it. It feels like the early game of the Android might have been downed (was it?) and the late game of the Android was never really boosted to balance the change. Anyways, I am fine with a secondary route for Arcosians to progress. But they do enjoy a really good early game.
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 11, 2015 22:13:24 GMT
As deserving as androids are of some tweaking, I would like to ask that people resume some discussion on this. yes, Arcosians are the most beefy race early game - but then considering the enormous PL cost of transforming, there's a big deterrent to using them unless absolutely necessary, as it slows their progression. Late-game, unless you choose to become a cyborg, your trans multiplier caps out at... x16. With those who chose to become cyborgs able to reach as much as x39, and some other races getting even higher trans multipliers, can't help but feel that a lot of Arcosians are either gonna let their characters die later on or go cybercosian just to stay relevant.
I get that for some, it's hard to canonically justify a REALLY high multiplier for later 'natural' transformations, as Cooler in his 'Royal' form still couldn't take Super Saiyan Goku, but let's be honest - that made no damn sense. Cooler could go one form beyond Frieza - implying he was of an equal or possibly greater power level. With the transformation factored in, 5th form Cooler should be considerably beyond Frieza at 100%... In the manga/anime, Frieza and SSJ Goku were not THAT far apart in power level. And yet somehow the fight is totally effortless for Goku... Always baffled me.
I'd propose perhaps making Royal Form require a somewhat higher PL to attain - meaning Arcosians will experience a bit of a lull in general power as other races start surpassing them. BUT, raise the multiplier for Royal Form to at least 20x, so they get back into the higher rankings again for a while.
Late-game i do agree that Arcosians should no longer be the T-rexes of the game, but right now Cybercosians aren't much lesser than any other race, while those who choose to stay 'unmodified' get shafted big time. At end-game, with only a measly x16 multiplier, you'd need an ENORMOUS base PL advantage to even consider taking on opponents like SSJ3s.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 11, 2015 23:01:21 GMT
I agree that Arcosians should get a natural alternative to cyborgification. However, they should still end the weakest of all the races, regardless of biological or mechanical nature.
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 12, 2015 0:08:04 GMT
Weakest, yes, but not by such an enormous margin IMO. Everyone else is fairly close, save for Arcosians and Custom Aliens (whose later transformation tiers have still yet to be revealed). Those two races aside, all other races have a trans between x39 and x45.
EDIT: I also noticed that the wording of how the Arcosian transformations interact with their PL gains is VERY confusingly worded on their species thread. Perhaps somebody could clarify this? I thought we got 100% gains in suppressed form, and it went down by 25% for each successive form up to true, which suffered a 75% penalty.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 12, 2015 0:15:37 GMT
What about a form that peaks earlier, but lacks a x30 Omega Form? and a x39 maybe at 420k, giving it a similar progression to Demon instead of Android if this path is chosen. You could have a Royal Form -> x22 Monarch Form -> x39 Ultimate Form, or something like that.
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 12, 2015 0:26:23 GMT
Personally I'd prefer to avoid non-canon forms, as we have for Saiyans, as that just invites silliness. Maybe like, a Mastered Royal Form, which yields something in the region of x38, but is permanent? Still the lowest multiplier at the final tier, but not uber-sucky as unmodified Arcosians currently are at end-game.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 12, 2015 0:45:30 GMT
New thought:
x35 for unique final form biological and the cybernetic implants/mechanizing does something along the lines of something like trying to recover power lost for getting the implants. For the first 2 levels, the mechanization has permanent 'reduced' power level... Wait, lemme do tier listings, as if they were the things. Before responding immediately, take a moment to think about my idea. They're possibly cheating death because of their toughness/+(x1) defensive power level, but have become like Frieza.
Tier 1- Alpha Stage (50% True Form). The Arcosian has undergone the dangerous surgery to replace lost organs and body parts from their disastrous battle. Their powers are reduced to half, due to the fact that they are not comfortable with their new, possibly mortifying mechanical form. Here, I'm proposing a x7 multiplier, instead of x5, as the species list got put back to the original Mechanization format... Strangely.
Tier 2- Beta Stage. This stage of the arcosian undergoes is trying to get the Arcoasian back to their normal state. Much of their power returns, but the machines are not capable of matching the physical body's potential development. This stage takes place at 20,000 pl after the Alpha Stage. x9 power level from this section. However, rather than x9, I'm proposing x12. This way, it's equivalent to the Super Saiyan 1 level.
Tier 3- Gamma Stage (100% True Form). In this stage, the machines supporting the Arcosian are capable of mimicking the capabilities of the original body, but only the True form and not the previous forms. This takes place 30,000 pl after the Beta Stage. In essence, this is reflecting the x10-x15 base pl that Arcosians have (could've swore the Arcosians were dropped to x10 before, but I see Bao's changes back to x15 base, so I'm confused here).
Tier 4- Meta Stage (x16-x19 base PL). Technology of higher grade has become available to the Arcosian to upgrade to. Their bodies are capable of breaking the gap of what they used to be able to do, allowing for growth. Now, the reason why saying this set up is to represent the Arcosian becoming more used to the Energy output the Meta Stage permits them. In addition the x3 additional should make them more appropriate to work with, once they've become fully used to their power. It'll make them feel as though they're keeping up, though this may not be the case. Though this may seem detrimental, if the arcosian is training/learning how to use their newer body parts between 250,000 and 300,000, this will enable them to be releasing more energy and somewhat reflecting that same power. The difference between Arcosians will see a progression between point A and point B before the Omega Stage that reflects a sudden power spike that other warriors wouldn't notice until they fight. It's like inputting and replacing original codes to do something faster and better, I think would be a way to analyze this and the next two from here.
Tier 5- Omega Stage (x26-x31 base PL). Science has created the near ultimate Omega machinations, reflecting more of the Arcosian's original form before the original incident! Here, this applies the same concept and provide the ability for the Arcosian to raise their power up. Same thing with the previous stage, with an addition +(x1) on this, as there's a vast difference between this and the Deus Ex stage.
Final Tier- Deus Ex Machina (x33-x39 base PL). Perhaps it is due to the Arcosian's involvement with technology since the incident that he/she is now capable of morphing the Omega implants beyond, as if they were the Original tissues that formed their bodies! However, it is still very clear that the Arcosian has been mechanized. With the requirement power level of 450,000, it may be a tad too much for this to happen. I'd propose 400,000 for this to be achieved. In the end, it will still reflect this, but it'll make the differences between an Mecha Arcosian and an Android very apparent. Android will instantly understand it's abilities because of the mechanized brain that enables them to process information faster than a normal brain. The Arcosian, being an originally biological being, will require time to adjust to their new forms, kind of reflecting their original bodies.
Thoughts?
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 12, 2015 0:48:44 GMT
I like that a lot, Pieter. The gradual acclimatisation to being a cyborg is good.
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 12, 2015 15:54:08 GMT
We could always 'adapt' the new form Frieza has in Resurrection of F as a higher tier of natural evolution (although not on a godly scale).
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 12, 2015 17:06:18 GMT
I think we might need to wait and see how that form is explained in the movie before we add that in.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 12, 2015 17:35:48 GMT
Want me to move my idea about the mecha Arcosians into a separate thread to talk about, guys, so we keep on topic here?
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Post by President Bao on Mar 16, 2015 13:36:10 GMT
As noted, cyborg is just the example given of one way to flavour your revival >.>
more to the point... I've tried to avoid this but: A while back now you guys voted to reveal all transformations, except for a select few 'secret transformations' which would be kept hidden and secret from people until obtained. As per that decision, I'll just leave the sentence at that and say no more.
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 16, 2015 21:52:34 GMT
You tease, Bao.
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Post by Wyntre Cold on Apr 5, 2015 13:46:42 GMT
Or we could just go with the Ultimate Evolution Golden Frieza transformation Frieza will be using in the new movie =P
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Post by Hyoza on Apr 5, 2015 13:58:45 GMT
Problem is, that seems like a pretty insanely powerful transformation, given how much of a boost it gives Frieza. Wouldn't that sort of mess up the whole idea that Arcosians are supposed to suck at endgame?
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