Koramund
Archived
PL: 121,168
Bio Metabolize(x3)
Zeni: 2,003
Shoki: 7,708
Tag: @koramund
OOC Name: Saiyan, Namekian, Human
Posts: 694
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Post by Koramund on Dec 30, 2014 0:48:14 GMT
...Your missing Bio-Androids, and Namekians.
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Post by Wyntre Cold on Feb 21, 2015 6:29:41 GMT
I still believe Arcosians should be better late game. Yes, I understand that they're nearly considered equals with how the mechanics work, but there are multiple factors. A. Humans get their 50x at 500k. Arcosians get their 39x at 450k. Do the math. B. Humans get multiple factors that make them pretty good early game. Sure, the trans isn't the best, but they're power-houses of zeni and get techniques a lot faster.
So yes, I'm all for this. They need some natural transformations... and better ones. After all, they're not even as nerf'd early game as they should be.
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Koramund
Archived
PL: 121,168
Bio Metabolize(x3)
Zeni: 2,003
Shoki: 7,708
Tag: @koramund
OOC Name: Saiyan, Namekian, Human
Posts: 694
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Post by Koramund on Feb 21, 2015 14:34:57 GMT
Arcosains are powerful only in Tier 1, now that it has a been a long time, I think they should be the best at Tier 1-2, and then be bad. That gives them almost 100,000 PL of being the strongest, for some races 200,000 PL. But, I think Daemons and Androids need to be bumped up, they are X39 EXACTLY like late game Arcosian, but they do not gain any compensation
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 21, 2015 15:09:48 GMT
Arcosians were designed to be the ultimate in the early game, and to be at the low-end late game (but still be competitive). Having them by the best at the start, and not the worst at the end, would break the design concept.
Heck, if I had designed it, their mechanisation would be way worse.
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Post by Wyntre Cold on Feb 22, 2015 1:03:31 GMT
Arcosians were designed to be the ultimate in the early game, and to be at the low-end late game (but still be competitive). Having them by the best at the start, and not the worst at the end, would break the design concept. Heck, if I had designed it, their mechanisation would be way worse. Perhaps this would be the case if they were the ultimate early game. Already, we're having Super Saiyans, and I believe that still counts as Early Game. Fun Fact: Suppressed to True, canon, is a greater multiplier than Base to SSJ.
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 22, 2015 5:12:34 GMT
But we should not account for Athren as his PL is 40k about the next.
Fun fact: our PL system does not correlate at all to DBZ canon.
Goku required 3mil PL to go SSj and reaxhed 150 million.
Frieza had 530k PL in his 'first' form whereas his true PL was arguably 120 million.
Fun fact: Athren has not yet unlocked his Super Saiyan, in good reaosn and faith.
The DBZ PL systems do not work fairly in a good forum RPG. I feel idiotic spelling this out.
Oops?
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Post by Wyntre Cold on Feb 22, 2015 5:42:54 GMT
So you admit I'm right, then?
Don't act as if that's the only leg to the argument. Arcosians may as not have a True Form, considering the drastic limitations you've put on it. It's like putting a kid in a cage because of a pollen allergy. Yes, that is kind of the point you're agreeing with, the first one anyways. It's early game, and they're already losing the edge, and I'm not talking about Athren. They unlock the transformation 10% sooner than humans do, a transformation that's only 78% of theirs. Yes, that's understandable, I suppose, considering how early and middle humans aren't too good, but perhaps having to go through a Saga-defeat that will most likely kill you is a bit too much. Without it, you're stuck with a 16x, merely 32% of the humans... forever. And even if you do go through a DE, any person that could give you a Saga defeat would kill you, too! So please stop the unfair meanness, complaining and spamming you've shown in the c-box.
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Post by President Bao on Feb 22, 2015 14:05:36 GMT
Both of you tune it downward and eat a sandwich. Wyntre, you appear to have misunderstood what 'early game' and such is referring to. It's more calculated on an individual basis rather than a global one, you fight against anyone of your same base power level and statistically you are entirely their superior due to being arcosian. This allows you to dominate anyone who'd otherwise classify as your equal or hit far about your weight band despite only having worked a fraction as much for it, when you are in your early game phase. You are outmatched by Athren* because he has worked harder than you and exceeded you in base strength - he has earned that power. * (once he hits ssj, even now you are still actually much stronger than him due to your early game advantage)You may still be in Early game, but (like or or lump it) Athren is on the cusp of the Second Phase, the phase where saiyans now stand (statistically) as rough equals to arcosians, along with other races. Soon you and many others will follow into that phase too. You were the big fish in the little pond, but all free rides must eventually come to an end. If you don't like it, then unfortunately you must do like all the other races have to do when they want more power - train hard and exceed people the old fashioned way. (To be honest I feel you are being... fairly greedy. You've had it so good that you've forgotten what it's like outside that ) As for some other comments here: re; canon multipliers -ooo, Canon debate , in refutation of your claim; frieza began true form with 1% of his full power, meaning it's quite likely his suppressive forms were further reducing this 1% ... making the canon 'multiplier' for first to true form actually a mere 2.6 XD I actually think our system can express canon quite well as is - consider that not only was frieza using forms to suppress his power, but that he was additionally using technique points invested in ki supression, and simply chose to flavour his battles by holding back all the way until he utilised his true form before progressively removing the ki suppression to further ham up the ante. Re; humans and number comparisons -I would request that everyone stop using humans like some sort of 'average' for what a final game transformation is... it's disingenuous and (unintentionally) misleading , I've notice it's become the trend in these sorts of discussions, so I just thought I'd mention it. In your case Wyntre you are comparing the strongest late game race to the weakest late game race(the strongest early game race)... which if we look at the numbers as you request; a -x6 final game offset is still half the size of the +x10 credit arcosians are given early game. Anyway, I have to head off so I can't fully address everything this moment(and I apologise if I come across as harsh or unkindly at any point, it is certainly not my intention. Trying to hurry this post though so I can head to bed ), so one other important point - Saga defeat = being killed. They are interchangeable meaning you are being given a 'get out of jail free card' essentially... trying to argue that as a negative is unorthodox to say the least XD
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Post by Wyntre Cold on Feb 22, 2015 20:16:07 GMT
Phew, I thought it meant major defeat in a saga without deafh, considering Frieza nor Cooler died at all.
We're also off topic now, my apologies, but Dravocn here, who I believe is semi-active, would like to see the possibility of some natural transformations.
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 22, 2015 22:41:12 GMT
I agree that there should be a natural alternative to mechanisation.
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Post by Wyntre Cold on Mar 4, 2015 7:42:53 GMT
I'm not saying what I am to say should be implemented, but I will say, if I had it my way, the following way is the way I would have it. If only I knew Arcosians weren't good late-game, I would have chosen humans or Saiyans for sure... Asterisk = permanent. # = can only be used for a short time.
Suppressed- 0.5x Brute- 1x Monster 1.5x 10% True- 2x, 10% gain loss 20% True- 4x, 20% gain loss 30% True- 6x, 30% gain loss 40% True- 8x, 40% gain loss 50% True- 10x, 50% gain loss 60% True- 12x, 60% gain loss #70% True- 14x, 70% gain loss #80% True- 16x, 80% gain loss. For every post this is used in, you lose 0.5kPL. #90% True- 18x, 90% gain loss. For every post this is used in, you lose 1kPL. #100% True- 20x, 100% gain loss. For every post this is used in, you lose 2kPL. *Mastered 10% True- 4x Royal- Not exactly sure here, canon it would be, considering 10% is a 20x, an 80x, but that's too OP. Canon-canon, it would be a 905.6x is Suppressed was a 1x. So I'll stick with 25x Emperor/Empress/King/Queen- 30x God/Goddess- 40x (unlocked at 500,000)
But that's just an opinion :3
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Post by Dravocn on Mar 6, 2015 23:01:01 GMT
I didn't mean to make so little sense, i need to learn how to interpret myself better to other people it seems... but... i THINK the end result of this makes sense.... i'm not so sure right now, and ive read this discussion at least ten times XD
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Post by Wyntre Cold on Mar 7, 2015 3:18:28 GMT
I didn't mean to make so little sense, i need to learn how to interpret myself better to other people it seems... but... i THINK the end result of this makes sense.... i'm not so sure right now, and ive read this discussion at least ten times XD Phew, I thought you left If you want to know, here are the near-canon trans: Suppressed- 1x Brute- 2x Monster- 3x 10% True- 22.641509434x 50% True- 113.2075471717x 100% True- 226.41509434x Royal- 905.66037736x Anyway, is anyone against the natural transformations? Dravocn, may you please add a poll?
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 7, 2015 3:36:09 GMT
I suggest a slight buff to the Royal form (because otherwise natural Arcosians are mega-gimped late-game), keep mechanisation as-is for those who really want to do it, and no non-canon forms please!
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Tao Lung
Rising Soul
PL: 1,671; Intense Struggle (x3): 5,013; Items: 1 use space pod, Heavy Weights (2521.5| 7564.5); Zeni: 2797
Tag: @sacidepatinete
Posts: 172
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Post by Tao Lung on Mar 7, 2015 14:30:39 GMT
I disagree with both the 100% gain loss and even worse, the pl loss for using the transformation. Arcosians need to be nerfed late game, but in a way they can work, else they will be useless. A transformation that locks your progress and has your character retrocede while being 2,5 times weaker than the top strongest transformations and around x1.9 times weaker than the average ones is way to harsh. This should be rethought or allow a zenni-based way to achieve mechanization like: 1) You may aquire mechanization for free by suffering a saga defeat. 2) You can pay x zenni and roleplay your mechanization out once you acquire the required base pl.
Not everyone might want to robot-ify their arcosian and the second option allows then a way to flavor their transformation that way, while sticking to required mechanics to work it out.
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