Otto
Archived
Zeni & Item Xfer to Fleece
PL: 53,483
Overdrive(x3) X6 Processor(x6P)
Zeni: 0
Tag: @otto
OOC Name: Pipa
Posts: 391
|
Post by Otto on Feb 4, 2016 0:11:12 GMT
Nerf early game hard til 150k imo.
|
|
|
Post by Kaula on Feb 4, 2016 0:18:06 GMT
I still vote we get rid of durability. Completely, if I am honest. Though I don't know a whole lot about all those numbers.
|
|
Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
|
Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 4, 2016 1:11:28 GMT
Android UCs are also very content specific, and I'd argue even though they have a wide range they don't necessarily have the best range of UC's or near it. As I'll try to show below, that probably belongs to Majins, who have a Demon Skill Lite, Durability, 2 get-out-of-death free cards, and a better absorb. I've created a staircase chart to better avoid rarefaction and show how the different species preform when their UCs are taken into account along with their tiering. All situation UCs have been baked into the graph save for Goldzaru because MSSJ outpreforms its 7.3 at 175k. All options have been represented, but the strongest Transformations available in range have always been taken. - Environmental transformations like Oozaru, and the two Makyans have been added with an x/3 formula to account for the 3 weeks they aren't active. - Situational transformations like Overdrive, Magic Skill, and Demon skill have been added with a /2 formula to account for their binary on-activation nature. - Bulking or mixed O/D transformations are represented with a (o + d / 2) formula. - Durability has been added to Arcosians, Majins, and Androids with a +.25 modifier weight ((o + d / 2) * .5 ). A few limitations of the graph: Aliens were removed for clutter reasons and because there are already 'Alien shadows' represented in the non-custom races. Certain costs like Hybrid transformation choice, FFSJ/Goldzaru choice, Zeni progressions costs for Overdrive, cannot be shown. Similarly, certain boons such as the three absorbs, Android rebuild, Namekian regeneration, Majin revive-regens, the three zenkais, and Arcosian PL bonuses have not been accounted. Majins look so jacked because they have many strong UCs (absorb that adds to modifier + halved demon skill) plus decent tiering. Limitations aside, I feel this correctly represents the competitive advantage provided by most of the UCs and their effects on the tiers. Min-max diagrams would also be useful to look at, and so I'll be making min-max diagrams that show PL progression, which I will be creating tomorrow. Graph: As shown, while long, Android tiering even with Overdrive accounted for alongside the other situationals is pretty much in the middle of the pack until the 300-350k range, when Androids enjoy a peak. Edit: Was working on the graph for a couple hours, so didn't notice yours Zucceta . If you put in Overdrive we should include all situationals including Demon Skill and Majin's Magic Skill, as it provides a similar situational to Overdrive. This graph here pulls everything into an average, without showing min-max, but I'd like to see both min/max + average.
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Feb 4, 2016 1:32:58 GMT
Vi, I appreciate the sentiment but I'm not sure you can mathemetically equate a lot of the species UC's with their transformations (unless you're talking about contextual transformations like Oozaru?)--as you stated now that I'm re-reading the post. Rebuild/Absorb/Cheap OD makes androids superior. Didn't know about Majin's magic skill, but Demon skill does not operate at the same level of OD. If OD was onlya burst for on top of transformations like magic skill, sure, I'd have done so - but Overdrives are ostensibly transformations (and, in use, always used as such without much of a limiter).
I'm not going to ignore Vi's graph as I'm going to stare at it and try to understand it more, but based on previous conversations I've offered up a revised version of Androids: - Overdrive Costs: 1000z per +x1 recovered
- High Energy Module: 2000z to halve Overdrive costs
- Absorb Module: 4000z, Limit on Absorb UC aspect (5k Max)
- Changes/nerfs to base transes at certain points to bring more in line with other regular-tier-up races:
- Reduce base 6x a base 3x - Buff 9x to 11x to represent being androids better than near to ssj, equals ssj defensively with durability and is a canonical look at the guys like androids 19 and Gero who didn't quite match SSj. - Reduce 16x to 14x (intended to show how MSSj was meant to be better, even if mult is still lower w/OD) - reduce 31x to 29x - make 40x slightly later so other races get a bigger moment (like demons or namekians)
It is my opinion that androids should never be on top, PL-wise, even with OD (and especially with as cheap as it is to maintain and how it has been used in practice for pretty much all of our androids so far). Ignoring the current public changes to the rebuilds to make them less OP, androids are far less threatened than other species and should have multipliers in accordance. If OD is changed further, then I could see, potentially, stronger base/OD mults.
|
|
Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
|
Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 4, 2016 2:03:12 GMT
Everything added into my graph was done using mean regression division rules and only UCs that directly effected modifiers were accounted for, so it's for sure mathematically sound and I made no value judgments on non-modifier UCs, though I did address the non-modifier UCs in the preamble to the graph. Every other race gets at least one point (many more than one) in time where they shine above the others. Why not Android? I'm not understanding why they should never have any time near the top. As it stands they have the smallest window of on-top time with their base transformation, a small 10k window at 220k before Demon catches them. By reducing the base tiers, we're making Androids pay to compete normally as other players do (who go along in DEs etc without having to pay for fighting). Turning the x6 to a x3 would mean that Androids are the only species to not get above x7 (even with Overdrive) within the 1st 100,000 PL and turn them from one of the poorer starters to for sure the worst. That's a drastic pain for a very long gulf. So we're now discussing downing every single Android UC, plus lowering the base tiers, which would make them worse than when they were created?
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Feb 4, 2016 2:06:30 GMT
I would say that Rebuild, Durability, and the Module UC is android's "shine", Vi. That was the original intent for the lesser transes as I'm sure you do recall. I see what you mean about the x6-to-x3; I could see it being anywhere between x3-x5 but I still think the OD x9 (which, lets actually be honest, is basically always used and quickly restored at little actual cost in practice) is way strong. Making this level of OD an x8 would make it in-line with the original, normal transformation version of OD. Worse than when androids were first created? Looking at their UCs, I don't think so. even from this WIP page androids now have a 6x/9x as opposed to an (albeit always) 8x and a bunch more mechanics that aid them. With those stats you listed on the previous overhaul, I know you know this, too.
|
|
Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
|
Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 4, 2016 2:23:03 GMT
Those UCs are good, but you're simultaneously advocating the removal and/or heavy downing of those UCs... And a x8 Overdrive to sounds very nice. I don't agree that 1000 Zeni is as low cost as you make it out to be. It's at least a few threads, and the cost is prohibitive enough to where I don't use Overdrive unless I think I have a good chance of dying, which I think is how it was intended. I didn't use it in Fire and Ice, for example. I've used Overdrive 5 times, and 3 times competitively. From what I've seen, most Androids use Overdrive sparingly. I'm sure if we took it to the site (which I think we should do, if we're proposing this entire hammer), they would say that they rarely use Overdrive because of the cost. I worry that with all these proposed changes we're basically taking a hatchet to the species in a vaccuum, without looking hard enough how it relates to the others. Majins have better UCs for instance. Demon Skill is functionally comparative. Sure it's a 1-shot, but they it has an edge in power and doesn't cost 1000 Zeni every time someone wants to use it. You say that Androids shouldn't be on top ever. Why?
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Feb 4, 2016 2:30:04 GMT
You say that Androids shouldn't be on top ever. Why? I would say that Rebuild, Durability, and the Module UC is android's "shine", Vi. That was the original intent for the lesser transes as I'm sure you do recall. We are starting to slightly move in circles now so I'd be happy to move this thread to the public eye. 1000z isn't prohibitive but nor is it "cheap", I guess I do agree there. I think that, in context, we should see how many DE's happen that involve androids and overdrives as some extra research. The UC nerfs are hardly nerfs at all - people agree that the High Energy Module as it stands is OP and the absorber module is unchanged aside from a zenni cost rise and the boost you suggested. I think Majins are probably the most comparative to Androids but they still can't avoid death - and I'm not suggesting Majins don't need scrutiny or a nerf, either.
|
|
|
Post by Pin on Feb 4, 2016 3:07:45 GMT
As an Android player (albeit relatively new and low-tier), I wouldn't mind losing Durability. I've used it once, and while handy, often forget it exists. Having it as an Android Shop item sounds like a solid compromise.
I honestly thought OD cost 1000z for each x1 restored already, so that sounds reasonable to me.
High Energy module being more expensive for reduced OD cost sounds good, thought being more than say 5000z would be a bit much.
As far as Absorber Module goes, why not make it an optional path UC? I may be misremembering, but did Android 16, 17, and 18 have the absorption thing going? Maybe make it something a player has to pick at character creation - maybe Absorption Module or Overdrive?
Coming up on my first trans, seeing the idea of having that trans HALVED is super disheartening. It's not super easy for me to bang out solos, and writing large wordcounts can be difficult as well. Suddenly going from looking forward to 300k effective PL to 150k effective PL hurts.
As far as OD and Rebuild go, I will say that keeping those two UC's in mind has factored into purchasing decisions in my time here. It's sort of like when your bank account has a mandatory minimum - Keep x amount of money on you or you'll be penalized. And while I understand that Rebuild is pretty badass and SHOULD come with that sort of "tax", once you drop ALL the android trans, the OD repair cost becomes the cost of just being able to compete on level ground - keep 1000+ zeni on you or you can't play with the cool kids.
Numbers don't lie, and I agree that it looks like Androids need to be scaled back, but I think some of the suggestions that have been made are a little "scorched earth".
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Feb 4, 2016 3:10:17 GMT
I'd be happy to make the base 6x a base 4 or 5x rather than a 3x, but I do think it needs a nerf.
|
|
|
Post by Pin on Feb 4, 2016 3:19:39 GMT
A base 4 or 5 would sting much less than 3x.
|
|
Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
|
Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 4, 2016 3:48:41 GMT
Absorber is already an optional path, Pin . You have to choose between Absorber and High Energy. Raising the cost to 5000 (or somewhere near there) would destroy the usefulness of High Energy if the function of High Energy was simultaneously downed, which is what was proposed. Making it only cut half of the Overdrive repair cost would mean that you'd have to use Overdrive 11 times before you got any benefit out of the module. How many times have you used Overdrive? I've used it 5, three times competitively, and I'm probably the longest running droid around and have been in plenty of DEs. All of these changes, added up, represent by far the largest downing we've ever tried to put on a species. If all of these proposals, the UCs plus Tiers are downed, I believe it will break the Species. I will admit that I'm kind of baffled and frustrated as to why this level of downward change is being proposed for every single metric of the Android without any cause really arising for it or onsite change in the game bringing these things to the fore. Are we going through a Species overhaul? Will this critical lens be brought to every other species afterwards, including Saiyans, Hybrids, and the other popular ones? You yourself Rev are using the UCs as justification for downing the tiers and saying that's why they shouldn't ever be in a good spot even with Overdrive while simultaneously advocating downing the UCs because the tiers are good enough. Here's what I propose: Absorb Module: Gets a 5k cap. Other absorbers get looked at, cap-wise. Overdrive: gets changed from the 1000 for restore to the 1000 per-x. Rebuild: Gets pulled back some along the voting lines. As for Tiers, I don't think they need to be any lower but the higher changes I could live with more than the first 100k changes. Blunting the x16 to x14 and blunting the x31 to x29 means they'll never be in a 'best in range' spot, even with Overdrive. They will be the only Species in the game to not ever get a 'best in range' spot. Those changes are meh in my opinion though manageable at least, but the x6 nerf I'm most fervently against because it'd put Android startgame from being comparative to other species out into weirdo land without any compensation down the road. They already finish among the lowest at endgame. Why should they go 100k at the bottom in the start? For a (if these Tier changes go through) very trudging middle?
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Feb 4, 2016 4:14:49 GMT
I feel like we're veering into non-argument territory again: I clearly stated in my opening to this discussion that I'd already given an eye over every races, and androids (along with saiyans post-transformations update) were the ones who stood out to me. I've suggested an Arcosian addition in staff and am looking over Majins.
I'd happily give a look over Majins, too, but please don't imply that I'm gunning for androids for some sort of personal reason when clearly this isn't a one-in-a-million opinion, because I think you know me better than that.
My suggested tier changes were with the slight nerfs to UC's in mind; if we didn't down one side at all I'd suggest reducing the others further.
I agree on absorber caps for all species.
The 14/17x and 29/32x still place them as a good if not high average at these time periods, with or without OD.
First tier's 9x makes them the (triggerable, situational) strongest asides from Arcosians. 7x or 8x would sit more easily with me.
|
|
|
Post by Pin on Feb 4, 2016 4:26:23 GMT
Ah, I misunderstood High Energy and Absorber - thought HE was a prerequisite for Absorber. My bad.
I've personally only used OD once, but I've also only been with the site for 4 months or so.
See, when I look at the proposed changes to High Energy module, I see it as an investment rather than something that should have a direct payoff - yes, at that price point you need to use OD 11 times to break even, but then why not just use OD more? If you're paying less to fix OD, you have more freedom to use it. It takes time to pay off, but at no point would I say it's "not worth it" unless you're only thinking in the short-term.
If I may, I'd like to make a recommendation for the tier changes. I can live with androids never having a "best in show" timeframe, but at the same time to balance that maybe make it so they also never have a "worst in show" timeframe. They're machines, why not balance them to be limited in potential, but also super reliable? Make them the middle-ground species in power, and let the UCs be the benefits that people pick that race for.
Rebuild is a solid UC and is a big selling point for the species, but I wouldn't really consider it a direct contributor to power. It doesn't make us any more likely to WIN a fight, it just means we won't get killed (If we've been picking zeni now and again instead of PL). Making us at any point the weakest fighters only makes us need to use Rebuild more, use OD more, which increases that zeni tax and stretches out those bottom-tier timeframes as we keep having to pick zeni instead of pl in order to make use of the UCs that apparently necessitate such severe tier nerfs.
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Feb 4, 2016 4:29:01 GMT
I don't think they ever do have a "worst in show" time-frame even with my suggestions, often even w/o OD--I'll have to double-check the numbers though.
Edit: Yeah, looking at it they never have a bad time.
|
|