Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 7, 2015 20:47:10 GMT
Hey everyone. I posted about this in terms of balancing the Arcosians on the Arcosian species thread, but thought it much more appropriate to speak about here. I've been crunching some numbers today, and the Android is basically the bottom of the barrel of the Species. The following table was made of the maximum modifiers per species. Alien B & C were excluded due to lack of characters and to save space. Conditional modifiers like Overdrive, Bio-Metabolize's x8, the Full Moon, Makyo Star, etc., were also removed. When taking offensive-defensive split modifiers, only the offensive were counted, as offense is far more important for game mechanics. (Max Transformation Modifier (x))
Base PL | Alien A | Androids | Arcosians | Bio-Android | Demons | Humans | Hybrids | Namekians | Saiyans | 0 | 2 | 0 | 10 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 20,000 | 2 | 0 | 10 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 50,000 | 2 | 6 | 10 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 0 | 70,000 | 6 | 6 | 10 | 3 | 8 | 6 | 4 | 7 | 0 | 100,000 | 6 | 9 | 10 | 3 | 8 | 6 | 11 | 7 | 12 | 120,000 | 6 | 9 | 10 | 13 | 8 | 6 | 11 | 7 | 12 | 140,000 | 6 | 9 | 10 | 13 | 18 | 16 | 11 | 7 | 12 | 150,000 | 15 | 16 | 10 | 15 | 18 | 16 | 11 | 18 | 12 | 175,000 | 15 | 16 | 10 | 15 | 18 | 16 | 18 | 18 | 17 | 200,000 | 15 | 16 | 15 | 15 | 18 | 16 | 18 | 18 | 17 | 220,000 | 15 | 16 | 16 | 15 | 18 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 17 | 230,000 | 15 | 22 | 16 | 15 | 18 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 17 | 240,000 | 15 | 22 | 16 | 15 | 22 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 17 | 250,000 | 25 | 22 | 22 | 15 | 22 | 23 | 25 | 20 | 25 | 275,000 | 25 | 22 | 22 | 28 | 22 | 23 | 25 | 20 | 25 | 300,000 | 25 | 31 | 30 | 28 | 22 | 23 | 25 | 32 | 25 | 330,000 | 25 | 31 | 30 | 35 | 22 | 23 | 25 | 32 | 25 | 350,000 | 25 | 31 | 30 | 35 | 22 | 23 | 25 | 32 | 25 | 385,000 | 25 | 31 | 30 | 35 | 39 | 23 | 25 | 32 | 25 | 400,000 | 42 | 39 | 30 | 43 | 39 | 23 | 40 | 32 | 40 | 425,000 | 42 | 39 | 30 | 43 | 39 | 23 | 40 | 42 | 40 | 450,000 | 42 | 39 | 39 | 43 | 39 | 23 | 45 | 42 | 40 | 460,000 | 48 | 39 | 39 | 43 | 39 | 23 | 45 | 42 | 40 | 500,000 | 48 | 39 | 39 | 43 | 39 | 50 | 45 | 42 | 45 |
Graphical Representation (Scatter Line): (Note: Hybrids in graph at end in error, should be on par with golden Saiyan line) Analysis: Highest Average: Namekians, 21.875 Lowest Average: Humans, 17.46 Highest Maximum Transformation: Humans, 50 Lowest Maximum Transformation: Androids, Arcosians, Demons, 39 Longest Best-In-Range Peak (From Independent Variable Base PL): Arcosians, 0-100,000 (100,000) Shortest Best-In-Range Peak: Androids, 230,000-240,000 (10,000) Most Best-In-Range Peaks: Bio-Android, 4 Least Best-In-Range Peaks: Androids, Arcosians, 1 Top Three Best Growth Rates (Slope Taken): Bio-Android, Demon, Namekians Bottom Three Growth Rates: Androids, Arcosians, Humans Discussion:So Androids are at the bottom of the barrel in almost every important metric. A few interesting notes here -- if we add in the special conditions such as Makyo Star, absorption, Full Moon etc., Demons and Bio-Androids both are amazing. They already sit on in the top three averages (along with Namekians), even without their special conditions active. Demons, Hybrids, and Namekians all surprised me with how well they did in the numbers. Saiyans were artificially deflated a bit because of the removal of Oozaru. Given that Androids don't really ever have a period where they shine supreme, is there any way to fix this? One idea I have is to make Overdrive useful. I never use it after using it once in a thread because of the stiff and kinda nebulously-delivered penalty. Perhaps the Android's late game can be brought up a bit by allowing an Overclock that is x3 or x6 that is available with a Run Cold technique, and stacks with the rest of the xforms. This still wouldn't really give Androids a time where they are dominant above everyone, which I'm not sure is really necessary, but it would at least give them a mid-tier status at the end of the game that would keep them competitive. Was there some point where the Android's early game was nerfed? Because it looks like they were meant to have Demon-like early game if you take the late-game trends, but instead, Androids were given the worst early game, a middling middle game, and the worst late game. Currently, there really isn't ever a payoff in the game mechanics for being an Android.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 7, 2015 21:50:25 GMT
Some solutions offered:
A) Make Androids endgame strong, but not strongest, and removed Overdrive. A permanent x45 would place them on part with Hybrids end-game, and give them a similar (still lower, but similarly shaped) curve that is comparable to Hybrids but peaks at different points. This would justify the Android's horrid starting position, and also the Bio-Android who manages to roughly keep pace or outpace his mechanical cousin for most of the game.
B) Make Androids startgame strong. I haven't got confirmation on this yet, but it looks from the shapes the numbers generate that something happened in Android's starting game and the rest of the Android's game wasn't balanced. Were they once downed in early game? The easiest solution might be to replace them with a high early game rating, perhaps a larger Overdrive that didn't overheat so often, or an earlier x6. This would put their trendline in a similar direction with Demons and Arcosians, which is where the Androids currently end up.
C) Make the Androids mid-game dominant. Instead of the x31 transformation at 300k that is instantly outpaced by Namekians x32 and 30k later by the Bio-Android's x35, give the Androids a x36 transformation that will keep them at the top slot (but not domineeringly so) until Demons come online with their x39 at 385k. I don't like this solution as much, because the Bio-Androids mid-game dominate currently plus finish with a good end-game.
If I had to choose any fixes, it'd be A because it will be less complicated, and provide the Androids with a big payoff where they (finally) surpass the Bio-Androids and become mid-tier late game.
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Tao Lung
Rising Soul
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Post by Tao Lung on Mar 10, 2015 21:19:34 GMT
Nice work with the transformation chart and graphic. I can see A working and replacing Overdrive with one an ability that allows a choice between:
1) Unlimited Power Model: The android simply doesn't tire out from exerting itself and is allowed to use a limited-use technique 1 more time than allowed.
2) Energy-Absorbing Model: Doesn't have infinite energy, but is able to drain ki out other characters to become stronger and fuel their reserves.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 11, 2015 2:01:28 GMT
Interesting ideas, Liang Mr. Lung who's-surname-makes-me-think-Liang-cause-I'm-a-dunce. I like it A few more data points that I found salient: At no point does the Android meaningfully (more than +1) outpace the Arcosian in the Max Transformation Modifier metric in Tier-to-Tier comparisons. If you allow for functional ties (+/- 1x) the Android is absolutely horrible: Base PL Point Comparisons (x-axis): 4 Losses for the Android, 6 Losses for the Arcosian, 14 Functional Ties. Android loses to the Arcosians for 100,000 PL. Android's win time with functional ties is 85,000 PL total. For the remaining 315,000 PL, they remain functionally tied, within +/- x1 of each other. At no point does Android receive a payoff as Arcosians do, and as a function of both 1v1 and global "win time" they perform far worse than Arcosians.
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Tao Lung
Rising Soul
PL: 1,671; Intense Struggle (x3): 5,013; Items: 1 use space pod, Heavy Weights (2521.5| 7564.5); Zeni: 2797
Tag: @sacidepatinete
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Post by Tao Lung on Mar 11, 2015 2:21:47 GMT
You called me Liang XD
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Post by President Bao on Mar 11, 2015 3:09:55 GMT
Awesome to see someone else keen on the number crunching side (To get a more accurate summation, try using 10,000 or even 5,000pl increments for your plotting, to avoid the phases of contractions/rarefaction your current data points go through. Additionally, branching paths on certain races are easiest to represent as a whole new race.) Unfortunately, removing conditional modifiers(while making the process easier) creates a false impression of each races strength. For instance, Arcosian transformations are a conditional modifier, which if excluded would skew results *considerably*. Overdrive, much like the arcosian forms, is a conditional transformation with a post-access cost (rather than environmental trigger or pre-access cost). What this means is that the form is always available, the volition not to use it simply comes in the form of an RP debt. Your justification for excluding defensive multipliers is the same reason why conditional multipliers must be included; My suggestion, re-run your data but with 'Overdroid' added as another race. This will entail a +3 on all data points, and give you an accurate summation of an androids true combat proficiency at any point in the game. Overdrive is also what makes Androids superior to Arcosians late game, despite 'cybercosians' being a derivative of post-200,000 androids. --- When it comes to environmentally triggered conditional forms, which are entirely inaccessible when the correct trigger is not available, I have been dividing the multiplier by it's useable time to calculate an 'average overall effectiveness'. What this means is divide the multiplier by 4 (since they have 1 week on, and then 3 weeks off for their Oozaru/Makyo/Other events). Even this however is limited in comparative value, since their very 'tidal' nature means during their peaks they are absolute kings, and during their trough they can't bring it. Bio-metabolise is the tricky one, as it is our first and only 'pre-cost' - in some ways it's accessibility is higher, and in others far lower.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 11, 2015 5:10:25 GMT
Fixed, Mr. Lung Thanks for taking a look at the data Bao. And yeah, I've been tinkering with a totally redone series of graphs (with the corrected Hybrid endpoint too) that will have an equally spaced domain for the scatter plot line, and also another that will show the proportional relationships of each species line as they go through the transformations. I initially did put in an Overdroid as you call it (and the event-triggered bonuses) but the data became way too crowded when put into a graph. I ended up only using Android because one of the problems I'm experiencing is Overdrive isn't coming only with an RP debt, it's coming with a mechanics debt whenever it is used (drop of -x1). This basically makes it non-functional for me, to where I never want to use it out of fear of how it will be ruled on. There is nothing set in stone on it.
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Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
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Post by Pipa on Mar 11, 2015 18:41:51 GMT
Another thing to consider Vi, is that androids are the safest DE race. So long as an android is keeping 1,000z they are able to avoid death even if they lose in a DE battle. This is basically free reign to be a very aggressive player (I would double check with higher powers to make sure their aren't any stipulations that might counter that ability before you run off and start a rampage though).
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Koramund
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Post by Koramund on Mar 11, 2015 20:46:01 GMT
Absorption is most likely going to be the only way to stop that because its EATING the foe, but maybe if the Android is defeated, Android 18 rebirth?
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 12, 2015 1:05:12 GMT
I know that their rebuilding is considered a big advantage, but I see duality there. For one, I'll never be able to RP in the AL, meet a Kai, learn AL techs, etc. In some respects it is a disadvantage, because a certain amount of WC has to be devoted to revival, and not pure gains like the other species.
I think that the best solution is still upping their endgame to compete with Saiyans/Hybrids and removing Overdrive at the last transform to balance it.
Alternative, we could fix Overdrive so that it has a set-in-stone number of uses before the penalty becomes in effect. 1st time use degradation is way too steep. I'm of the impression that having a 1000 Zeni cost for a x3 (which every other race starts out with for free) is a bit skewed in general. I could see maybe if Overdrive was x6 or x8, having that sort of cost associated with it.
I still think the best result is to raise the end game.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 12, 2015 1:22:30 GMT
A x4 would be more fitting for them, rather than x5 or higher, as it does stack up later on. My understanding, of their current situation, is that they need to actually be more invested in making money to maintain themselves far more than other races, or have a human character dedicated or even a hybrid human be dedicated mostly to furnishing (alliance banking, having become the thing, has enabled more efficiency to make the Android a more sufficient race if supported).
The way I'm seeing them, they're meant to be a distraction assassin/'tank' race that offers strong benefits if they are supported by a human.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 12, 2015 2:12:19 GMT
Thanks for responding everyone It does stack, but the problem is if you don't have the stack Android is consistently last with near-tying Arcosians, but with none of the benefits. If you do have the stack it still ranks below most of the competing Tiers, and it comes with a huge cost. It isn't so much if it's a x3 or a x4, it's that it should be usable x amount of times. ( edit: I ran some numbers Pieter and you're right, a x4 would make a big difference I sort of disagree with the idea that a character should be put in gameplay modes like distraction/flankers etc while some strong race does the real work, or that they should get a Zeni benefactor to be successful. In my mind, every character should have bonuses and maluses, and every species should have a payoff. Currently there kinda isn't one with the Androids, tier wise. They start off with the worst start (even with the high cost of OD in use, they equal the lowest xforms like Struggle/Will), a middling middle that is never on top, and the worst ending. No other race goes through two worsts in terms of beginning/middle/end. They're all balanced with either a strong start and poor end, or a poor start and strong end, or in the Namekians case, a strong start and lowest-to-highest middle and decent end. The Android tier progression rate is middling as well. I'm just looking for a fix that removes one of the two worsts, if that makes sense. Did Androids used to have a great beginning game? I heard there were changes to the race, I don't know what they were, though.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 12, 2015 3:05:46 GMT
I've just got some alternative ideas that might fix Overdrive and bring some balance to the Species at the same time without modifying the tiers, only Overdrive. It involves making Overdrive uses scale with tiers, and would give the Species an interesting metric to it. It comes with a few changes: Overdrive Fix A1) Softdrive: Allow Overdrive to be used at n-2 without heat/damage penalties. For instance, if my Overdrive is x3, I can use it at x1 without a penalty. If Overdrive isn't tuned to maximum, this option is removed. 2) Remove Instant Penalty: Remove the instant -x1 penalty for using Overdrive. Instead, have the usages-until-penalty scale at a rate of n/3. For instance, from 0-50,000 if you use it once in a fight, you get the penalty since you have no modifier. Then you hit the x6 modifier at 50k, and your components are stronger. They can take more heat. You can now use it twice without paying the penalty. At 100k, with x9, you can now use it three times. And so on and so forth. The table would look like this:
Uses Until Penalty
0-50k = lnstant Penalty. 50k-100k(x6) = 6/3 = 2 Uses 100k-150k(x9) = 9/3 = 3 Uses 150k-230k(x16) = 16/3 = 5 Uses 230k-300k(x22) = 22/3 = 7 Uses 300k-400k = 30/3 = 10 Uses 400k+ = 39 = 13 Uses This would still give Androids the worst beginning game, but balance it with a gradually-ascending middle game. It's late game would still be the among-the-worst, but it would add an interesting element in it. Overdrive Fix B1) Super Softdrive: Overdrive can be used at n-1 or n-2 without penalty (x1, x2) if Overdrive is at maximum. 2) Remove Instant Penalty Lite: Remove the instant penalty of -x1 and change it so that usages until penalty scale at a rate of +1 per tier. For example: Uses Until Penaltyx0 = Instant Penalty x6 = 1 Use x9 = 2 Uses x16 = 3 Uses x22 = 4 Uses x30 = 5 x39 = 6 Kind of a similar idea to Fix A, but with different gives and takes. Overdrive Fix C
Boostdrive: Overdrive is moved to a x4. It degrades at a rate of -x1 per fight use until realigned for 1,000. A x4 modifier makes it much more worth using at the high Zeni cost, as it can edge out some tiers now. Overdrive Fix D Harshdrive: Overdrive rises to a tremendous x6 for a fight, but penalize the player with a -x1 to their Permanent Tier after use (or -1/2x of their PL if they are in the 0-50k range) and Overdrive is completely removed, until tweaking (restoring their Tier as well) for a steep 3,000 Zeni. This one I find the most fun of the three. It allows Androids to compete with the mid-tier end gamers for a high cost. It keeps them weak but gives them a chance to be strong at any point, if they're willing to pay the high cost. Discussion:Overall, I think solution A or C might be the best. Or, if A's Usage fix is too much, a combining of A's Overdrive with B's Uses. Or get rid of the free uses, and keep the softdrive?
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