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Post by Zuni on Feb 4, 2016 16:15:52 GMT
I've been a pretty consistent advocate of nerfing androids because I feel their consistency-with-points-of-dominance is simply too strong. Many other races have higher spikes, but all other races have points where they suffer worse than androids do with overdrive.
That said, I don't think they need their early game nerfed hard. I think lowering the x16 to x14 and the x31 to x29 would be acceptable to scale back the consistent awesomeness of androids.
Otherwise, I support Vi's proposed nerfs. Absorb cap at 5000k, overdrive at 1000 zeni per X. Fine. Sounds good.
What I'd actually like to see is Overdrive turn into a x3 once per thread boost to any attack - similar to the Demon's (apparently awesome) special, and android transformations totally overhauled to give them a smooth but not dominating transformation line throughout the tiers. This, however, would be a rather more radical overhaul to their mechanics than I imagine most android players would be happy with.
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 4, 2016 23:05:20 GMT
I think I wanna lower the 50,000 6x to 5x, otherwise Android's 9x w/OD is like, the best outside of alien c and saiyan (situational) and arcosians (their whole gimmick). 8x is still great and the OD-less 5x is also competitive at this point.
I think overdrive is fine and I kinda like its implementation as is, as opposed to simply making it a watered down ver of magic skill.
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Bing Gan
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Post by Bing Gan on Feb 4, 2016 23:22:37 GMT
Personally I think making Overdrive just "Hidden Potential/Demon Special but worse" is a massive waste of a cool UC. It takes away some of the Android's uniqueness if they have a near-identical UC to two other races (As I said earlier, I'd also like to see Durability become something a bit more unique, but that's for another time)
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 4, 2016 23:34:06 GMT
Yeah, I'd be okay with it being a 1-shot if the Zeni cost was removed. I'd actually prefer that to how OD is now, as DS is chargeable and all it takes is one big attack to win a fight. No one should have to have a weaker DS + pay 1k to use it I think Demon Skill is usually undervalued in a discussion because those sorts of things aren't taken into account. Demons have a x8 at 70,000 which the Android was supposed to shadow (and can pull out a x12 attack). They have a much nicer 0-100k than Androids already, and consistently out-tier base Android (usually at a faster pace) until they lack a x30. With Makyan Giant's x13 also available at 70k, Demons are in a great spot for the first 100k (one of the very best, as they beat out both Arcosian x10 and Super Saiyan at 70,000 PL with a x13) and a great middle with the strongest (x18 at a very early 140k) tier around, which their attack brings up to a x22, in competition with PLs being pulled in the 200k-300k range. One thing I'd be interested to look at, is to figure out what we want Android progression to look like in general and to shadow them with another species in that light. When Majins were made, they were done on their own, and it ended up creating weirdness down the road. Currently I'd say Androids are most like Demons and Namekians, and sort of a blend of the two. Do we want them to be fast learners? Do we want them to be average but frequent tierers? Do we want them to rely on purchased UCs and be dependent on some kind of progression-sacrifice to compete? I'd be more interested in stressing the 'upgrade' nature of the Android. We could mirror them to Namekians or Demons more specifically, and allow them to sink progression into improving their position relative to those in the form of Zeni purchases.
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Post by Queen Habana on Feb 4, 2016 23:59:33 GMT
Is it? From what I understood it wasn't.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 5, 2016 0:27:16 GMT
Why wouldn't it be? If it wasn't, you'd lose all advantage if someone started charging before you.
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Post by Zuni on Feb 5, 2016 6:47:22 GMT
I had been told demon skill wasn't chargeable too.
And yes, in my 'dream scenario' you wouldn't pay to use the overdrive - it'd just be a slightly weaker demon special, BUT, you could use it on ANY attack (which means variants/upgraded variants suddenly have value) once per thread, and your basic android transformations would probably be a little better most of the way.
Infinite energy androids could then, perhaps, get an awesome ability to use it TWICE in a thread!
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Post by Bing Gan on Feb 5, 2016 6:59:58 GMT
it'd just be a slightly weaker demon special This is my biggest problem with your suggestion, Zuni (Or perhaps consider it my only problem). I'd prefer if we didn't make one of Androids UC's "Demon special but weaker". As I said before, it takes away some of the diversity of the races if just under half of them have some way to do a super trump card ability (Current races that have a UC that is essentially identical with minor tweaks: Majin's Magic Trick, Demon's Custom Ability, and Human's/Hybrid's first transformation pre-mastery, if we want to get technical). I know a few of the custom races and a handful of the preset races have some similar traits already (looking at you Durability/Extra Starting Zeni), but that doesn't mean we need to strip away one of the more unique traits.
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Post by Zuni on Feb 5, 2016 7:06:27 GMT
Androids would still have a whole raft of other traits that make them overall better than demons, not least of which would be the ability to pull it out twice if they chose that upgrade path.
Right now, Overdrive is 'The demon trait, but BETTER because it applies to EVERYTHING, ALL FIGHT for a zeni cost'.
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 5, 2016 7:09:12 GMT
Androids would still have a whole raft of other traits that make them overall better than demons, not least of which would be the ability to pull it out twice if they chose that upgrade path. Right now, Overdrive is 'The demon trait, but BETTER because it applies to EVERYTHING, ALL FIGHT for a zeni cost'. Android's entire transformation scheme is also balanced around it, unlike demon's which, honestly, was balanced without the UC in mind. I think OD's current format is one of my favourite things about 'droids, and I'd be resistant to changing it beyond the zenni per x+1 recovered.
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Post by Zuni on Feb 5, 2016 7:12:12 GMT
Honestly, I'd have an easier time believing the androids transformation tree was balanced around OD if the android's transformation tree was at all balanced. No offence, but demons clearly were balanced with the x4 in mind because of the large gaps where that x4 is still very much under par (and it specifically doesn't stack with their first transformation). Androids meanwhile, I only believe the OD was taken into account at the very end, where it brings them closer to the average for a subpar final tier.
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Post by Bing Gan on Feb 5, 2016 7:15:53 GMT
I'm not arguing that Androids or better or worse, I'm arguing that Androids would lose some of their uniqueness with this change. Of course, they have Repair and Anti Ki-Sense, but I still like the idea of Overdrive now better than making it a near exact copy of a UC we already have with very slight differences. I'm all for nerfs to Overdrive in the form of price alterations, along with transformation reductions, but I still want to keep it around in its current form. EDIT: Another note, Demon Special was originally just a Special, straight up, not a x4 ability. Check Alaistair's Character App if you don't believe me
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Post by Zuni on Feb 5, 2016 7:26:37 GMT
That said, I don't think they need their early game nerfed hard. I think lowering the x16 to x14 and the x31 to x29 would be acceptable to scale back the consistent awesomeness of androids. Otherwise, I support Vi's proposed nerfs. Absorb cap at 5000k, overdrive at 1000 zeni per X. Fine. Sounds good. Just to quote myself for what I'm actually advocating in this thread. That's all I think they need to be 'acceptable' in the immediate future, rather than clearly the best race by far and away.
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 5, 2016 22:31:27 GMT
I never felt that androids were by far the best race, I just felt the amount of UC boons and transformation tiers/relative dominance combined made them the best (by a small amount no less). I think my proposed suggestions still make them great but not, say, the obvious choice for someone seeking to power-play.
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Post by Otto on Feb 6, 2016 8:19:08 GMT
Remove androids, they suck
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