Tao Lung
Rising Soul
PL: 1,671; Intense Struggle (x3): 5,013; Items: 1 use space pod, Heavy Weights (2521.5| 7564.5); Zeni: 2797
Tag: @sacidepatinete
Posts: 172
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Post by Tao Lung on Aug 26, 2015 4:17:06 GMT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect them all.
What's just puzzling me is the comments of people talking as if the Fatigue system brings a whole new level of complexity to the idea. It is the same thing... with slightly higher numbers. I don't see how 20 + 20 can be that much harder to calculate than 3 -1. Perhaps it's the 33 value for the Tier 3 that's making it sound weird...
Tier 1: +10 Fatigue Tier 2: +30 Fatigue Tier 3: +50 Fatigue
Reaching 100+ Fatigue: Becomes unconscious.
Senzu Bean: Resets Fatigue to 0 Every post using only basic ki blasts/melee attacks: -10 fatigue.
Easier to understand now?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 4:24:47 GMT
The idea was simply to have more normal fighting over spam attacks. n1 = 1 point up2=2 mp3=3 get one point back on turns you don't use techs. Plain and simply reducing spam while keeping all freeform. Not aiding towards weakening them or Ko'ing them for how often techniques that aren't plain punches and ki blasts are being used. using a 1kp for a n1 isn't using up 33 percent of your stuff its just 33 percent of your pl is how strong the attack is. I don't see the point to alter a system that was only to serve as to limit spam as its only real purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 4:25:03 GMT
Up to the people who wants to use it, KP alone is fine to me but that's just only my opinion--I would also suggest a few people to test it out and see how actually like the KP system.
If this somehow vote more yes than no and becomes new to the system like KP then it should also be optional.
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Post by Reikiko on Aug 26, 2015 4:49:09 GMT
Tried to read up on this Fatigue stuff.
While I'm not a big fan of the 'additional numbers' mostly because fatigue does exactly the same thing the KP system already does, I did notice a thought/feature that could possibly end up being pretty neat to see included.
KP system and transformations:
Transformed KP: Rather than an increasing KP depending on your PL, you get a 'transformed state' that basically 'refuels' your KP and increases it with a +1 (for a max of +2 if you transform like Base > SSJ > SSJ2) meaning at most you'd be at 5/5
Permanent KP: I'm not sure how to deal with permanent transformations. I kind of want to say that they can have a 'power surge' that serves the same purpose as a transformation, but can only 'boost' an equal amount of times as their opponent is capable (to remain fair)
or maybe transformation merely refuels your KP, but I like the idea of transformations becoming more tactical, and people being like 'fight in base > power up to form 1 > power up to form 2 rather than going to final form right away =P
gonna be poking some technical people about this to see if this could work or not.
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Xanthon
Rising Soul
PL: 7,870; Great Namek(x4): 31,480; Items: One-Use Spacepod; Zeni: 4,231
Tag: @xanthon
Posts: 79
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Post by Xanthon on Aug 26, 2015 5:01:44 GMT
Tried to read up on this Fatigue stuff. While I'm not a big fan of the 'additional numbers' mostly because fatigue does exactly the same thing the KP system already does, I did notice a thought/feature that could possibly end up being pretty neat to see included. KP system and transformations: Transformed KP: Rather than an increasing KP depending on your PL, you get a 'transformed state' that basically 'refuels' your KP and increases it with a +1 (for a max of +2 if you transform like Base > SSJ > SSJ2) meaning at most you'd be at 5/5 Permanent KP: I'm not sure how to deal with permanent transformations. I kind of want to say that they can have a 'power surge' that serves the same purpose as a transformation, but can only 'boost' an equal amount of times as their opponent is capable (to remain fair) or maybe transformation merely refuels your KP, but I like the idea of transformations becoming more tactical, and people being like 'fight in base > power up to form 1 > power up to form 2 rather than going to final form right away =P gonna be poking some technical people about this to see if this could work or not. ^ this Yes. lol But I'm still curious to something. Does going Super saiyan, and trans that aren't permanent, have some sort of limit like..Post or time wise? Like how Kaioken is just One post with increased damage depending on the 'times' number. I realize that like..Mastered super saiyan(And if other races have a 'mastered' portion) should have next to no drain but until it isn't mastered, shouldn't super saiyan like drain the user in some way? Has that every been rped in a way over like an extended fight?
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Post by Reikiko on Aug 26, 2015 5:07:32 GMT
RP-wise temporary transformations tend to drain you, but mechanic-wise we don't have any iron rules on a 'post limit while being transformed'
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Tao Lung
Rising Soul
PL: 1,671; Intense Struggle (x3): 5,013; Items: 1 use space pod, Heavy Weights (2521.5| 7564.5); Zeni: 2797
Tag: @sacidepatinete
Posts: 172
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Post by Tao Lung on Aug 26, 2015 5:27:17 GMT
@jarvis I don't kow where you get that "weakening thing" and the using 33% PL after a N1 from what I just said.
KP says you have 3 points. Tier 3 uses up 3 points. Tier 2 uses up 2 points. Tier 1 uses up 1 point.
My suggestion (refined in the last post) is: You have 100 points Tier 3 uses up 50 Tier 2 uses up 30 Tier 1 uses up 10
All I did was invert the order to have a sum occur rather than a subtraction. That way it is: You start at 0 Fatigue Points Tier 3 adds +50 Tier 2 adds +30 Tier 1 adds +10
Which would be the same as inverting the KP to: You have start at 0 Ki Points Used Tier 3 adds +3 Tier 2 adds +2 Tier 1 adds +1
Can you see both are the same thing?
My own real contribution was: if you go over 100 fatigue, you go unconscious. Which would be the same as saying that in the KP System if you go Below 0 Ki Points you go unconscious, if using the KP system numbers.
"Fatigue" just sound less mechanical than "Ki Point" and much more illustrative. Ohterwise, it's pretty much the same thing and the math is just as easy and straightforward.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 5:36:13 GMT
There hardly needs to be a added ko mechanic. An if its nearly the same thing a system people are already using doesn't seem to be need changed when something not broken. Its only purpose and desire was lessening attacks as I said. It does that when used in battle. I don't see any reason to change it beyond possibly Rei's idea for a trans idea. Changing it something similar just seems odd if it is in fact nearly hte same thing. I don't really think Ko is needed as well. Battles go at a quick and decent pace with KP and you have more normal flavor moves as much as tech moves. Its fine the way it is with the KP in style for free form with only a lightly anti spam bit in.
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Tao Lung
Rising Soul
PL: 1,671; Intense Struggle (x3): 5,013; Items: 1 use space pod, Heavy Weights (2521.5| 7564.5); Zeni: 2797
Tag: @sacidepatinete
Posts: 172
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Post by Tao Lung on Aug 26, 2015 5:58:13 GMT
You can do much more with a scope of 1-10 (as my points all go up in tens), than with a 1-3 range, mechanically speaking.
I actually think it's positive for both systems to be on the same line of thought. That way it won't diverge from what people got used to already. Saying you're 80% fatigated just have a very illustrative sound to it in my opinion, that you cannot attain with "I got 1 KP left".
We're already introducing a new mechanic. Since it's gonna be done, why not refine use and perhaps make somethign that adds some tactical sense to the game as well, since avoiding spamming is a way to foment tactics itself. It is a very simply extra mile to walk here and particularly, I think it would be very cool to go: "Damn... I'm already exhausted...but screw it... I'm gonna go hero and go ove rmy own limits to try and save my friends, launching an attack that will put me at 110% Fatigue, causing me to black out, but perhaps change the course of battle". You now have mechanics to back that idea up.
Besides, with a larger range of numbers to work with, I pretty much have a way to work with temporary transformations. To emulate how draining they should be rp wise, we could say that they grant an extra +10 fatigue when using techniques while transformed (into a temporary transformation state).
Or, rather than passively healing 10 Fatigue when using only basic attacks, you only heal 5 fatigue.
Or even both.
With a range of 1-3 numbers to work with, that would be not possible and a new rule would have to be invented and soaked up the KP System in order to emulate that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 6:03:17 GMT
Part of the idea was to keep kp small as well for less attacks. Less attack more normal flavor. While its a interesting idea the small amount of kp is partly what makes it work. Its easy to use slims down attacks as well as can be charged rather easily as you use flavor attacks as well as counts for Su's like after image and other su's that aren't passive as well. Its only real intention was just that to lower tech use for favor of flavor but still the majority just being free form and honor system. While fatigue is a intersting idea KP works just fine for its purpose. I'd suggest using for a few fights perhaps as well to give it a chance.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 21:09:32 GMT
It might be interesting mechanically to have non-perm transformations cost 1 kp.
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princess
Newcomer
Tag: @princess
Posts: 36
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Post by princess on Sept 19, 2015 5:23:27 GMT
As someone who hasn't really used the system here but secretly loathes true free form RP, I feel KP are pretty much the best balance between free form writing and structured gameplay. Make them the norm, opting out the exception, and I think we will have much better balanced gameplay when this combines with the racial reworks in the works.
Also, I support kp for transforming, especially to your highest form. No one on DBZ instantly and effortlessly achieves their ultimate power, even if it is done so by choice. Reflecting that in a kp cost for non-permanent transformations makes sense in cannon and mechanics (watch trunks trying to go super saiyan without the training, he nearly passes out. Seems like a significant kp expenditure to me)
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Zod
Newcomer
Tag: @zod
Posts: 44
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Post by Zod on Sept 19, 2015 6:43:29 GMT
I'm not sure where you guys have reached thus far but a thought to toss out: Define KP as the amount of actions that can be done in a a single thread, specifically involving ki. Each upgrade of a maneuver makes it take more KP to use, thus limiting the amount of ki actions a person can do per post, especially with larger maneuvers that take a longer time to cast (such as the kamehameha wave) Each post, you can make KP restore by a specific amount that is stagnent, limiting the use of huge maneuvers and increasing the need of more maneuver variations, especially when you are fighting players with a higher KP cap. While in a transformation there can be a penalty cap on KP, removing 1 or so of the maximum amount of KP one can store after the transformation has been used, making people more warry of just using a transformation right off the start of battle. If you made the transformed character untransform when they hit 0, this would also be a good reason to put off always having your transformation on. You can switch what the cap starts at or how fast it generates by race in order to further equalize the races. For an example of this:Player A has a maximum capacity of 30 KP, while player B has a maximum capacity of 20. At the very start of battle, player A can spend up to 30KP worth of kai within 1 action turn, while player B can use 20. With his superior KP, Player A starts off the battle with large damaging maneuvers that eats up 3+ KP an action turn. Player B, on the short hand, must start on the defense while trying to get close enough to make his 3+ maneuvers count. Mid battle, Player A has been receiving a benefit of 1 KP regeneration per turn and still has 20KP to spare. Player B, however, has been only using defensive maneuvers and taking a bit of damage, but he too has a 1 KP regeneration per turn and still has 19KP, pretty much putting them on average. With Player B still damaged from the last large maneuvers, Player A doesn't change his strategy and continues with a full on assault. Player B enters a transformation, costing him 3KP to use. Player A follows up by doing the same, spending 3KP. As the battle continues, both enter a melee, costing 0 KP, but suddenly Player A now has 25 KP while player B still has 17- the transformation will not allow him to regenerate past 17. Because of this, Player A, while in transformation, can keep using his kai spells until the end of the fight while Player B runs low and can no longer use his best techniques! Player A wins! Yeah, that was a quick example that probably sounded hilarious to some of you but you get the idea
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Post by Kaula on Sept 19, 2015 7:14:30 GMT
Nah, it's good as it is for right now. That only sounds like it would extremely complicate things.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2015 7:23:08 GMT
XD huh? A little confused. Presently every person just gets 3kp at a time no matter pl or whose stronger or whose weaker. Its sorta like that to keep it from anyone spamming attacks since tier1 2 and 3 attacks cause a kp for each tier and you only regain a kp on turns you aren't using techs or aren't charging techs. o3o I think the simplicity of how it is presently is its charm. As for transformations it seems a intersting idea but given most the highest multipliers in the game end game are permanent and the the ones under it are the temp trans's I rather see it more fitting to keep transformations cost free. Since mechanics wise its just equaling up to the dude with perm and or matching the other person who already transformed. I believe this conversation has come up before for making temp trans's cost more or be temporary but it just sorta came out sounding a little unfair given how good some perm trans ones would be in comparison =3 As Kaula said right now its good its simple nice and fits neatly for the balance of freeform and system we have now =3
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