Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jun 13, 2015 20:56:05 GMT
Hey everyone The matter of Ki Points has involved a long-running discussion on the viability of changing the battle system. Original discussion on it can be found here, and a pilot run of the program can be found in this big DE here. The main idea is that Ki Points or KP is intuitively tied to your Tech usage. A tier 1 tech costs 1 KP, a tier 2 costs 2 KP, and so forth. This system was developed to counter lackluster fights and the 'tech spamming problem' people have experienced in battle, and there has been a report of success in creating a more drawn-out and dynamic fight on our DE test linked above. The system is as follows: KP SystemEvery player starts a thread with 3 KP maximum. Every post where a player does not use KP generates 1 KP. Tech Type | KP Cost | N1, SU1
| 1 | UP2, V2, SU2 | 2 | MP3, UV3, SU3 | 3 |
Only Combat-Action SUs drain KP when used. These include Afterimage or similar dodging techs, Solar Flare, offensive add-ons. Passive SUs or SUs not directly related to combat such as Ki Sense and its relatives, Ki Suppression, etc. have 0 KP cost. Senzu beans restore all KP [Limit 1 per fight]. Dodge Rules
SU1 Dodge: Up to 100% of PL SU2 Dodge: Up to 200% of PL SU3 Dodge: Up to 300% of PL
Some of the questions arisen from the KP discussions have been as follows:
Should there be a raising of maximum KP (3) as a player progresses in PL?
Should a person be able to build their KP past their maximum in battle?
Should KP be optional? If so, why and how is it determined?
I'm personally very conservative when it comes to changing the KP system as it is formed now. Although my initial system included the ability to raise maximum KP, I feel it will create an even wider gap between the big PLs and the little PLs, whereas the limited KP system encourages better chances for banding together and using smart tactics against a stronger foe. I also appreciate the idea that an MP3 technique for someone with 1,000,000 PL still uses 100% of their current ki, and so it tires them an equal amount as someone who had 10,000 PL and used 100% of their ki.
What are people's thoughts? Would they like to see this or a version of it implemented?
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Post by Zuni on Jun 13, 2015 21:08:31 GMT
I feel that if KP doesn't grow, it should start at 4 - 3 leaves you too vulnerable after using a large technique. In most equal cases, your opponent will still be able to use an SU1 and just dodge out the way then hit you back whilst your pool is empty.
That said, I don't think your KP max should be variable within a fight - that seems too complex to be desirable for me.
I have no strong preference between a permanent pool of 4 points or a 3 points and growth system. I do like the idea that high level fights are very clearly and obviously different in flavour to low level fights when participants have large KP banks to throw around at each other, but I can also appreciate that we might want to let 5 pl 20,000 fighters have a chance against 1 100,000 pl fighter and that may not be the case otherwise.
Finally, this system should be optional only in the sense that you have to 'opt out' of it rather than 'opt in' to it. The default should be to use KP; if ALL participants agree not to, then that is fine, but otherwise the KP system adds more balance to fights and if someone wants to use it that should take priority.
ETA: And with the dodging SUs I think the progression should be 115%/215%/315% - this preserves the 'within 85 per cent, fighters are functionally equal' design goal.
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Post by Vennel on Jun 13, 2015 21:34:53 GMT
I've got to say I am in agreement with most of Zuni's points here, aside from the numbers in the ki pool. The idea of using an MP3 leaving you vulnerable are sort of the entire point, and therefore you're meant to fight without using techniques, or lower level ones. Your MP3 is meant to be your finishing move, something you're able to use to finish someone off, and only in such a case. It's to encourage a give and take, because between two opponents, one could take a few more hits, that, while damaging them and making the fight that much harder, could then have acquired enough KP to unleash an MP3 against an opponent that can't defend against it, or begin charging one that would allow you to do more damage than they can use.
And the idea about an SU1 being able to stop/block an MP3 in a relatively even fight, is sort of the point. So that it encourages use of lower tier skills, and using an SU1 against it could feel pretty useless or like a waste, and so instead, a trading of lower strength skills begins, and some posts involving no skill use.
Granted, the system could probably make do with some more play testing, involving fighters with greater disparity of power level, and such. But overall, I feel the system is elegantly simple, and should refrain from any if more alterations. (Aside from the adjustment to the dodging SU's that zunio mentioned)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 0:39:49 GMT
This seems like an overall Nice system but flaws are there however they're not easily noticeable unless you look closely and use you head to notice.
You can say I am a new player, yeah but I've also design and code games and game system before in my life sooooo I'll give my opinion~
Limiting everyone to 3 is a good and bad idea, I would suggest to let it be linked to one's powerlevel and let it decrease the more you use an technique so someone with 1 '000'000 does have an advantage however that doesn't mean they can freely spam without and real drawbacks: they can lose all the power putting spamming wildly until they are in range of a weaker fighter's power and someone with 10'000 wasn't have to worry about wasting all there KP just to dodge one attack. BUT that's just my opinion.
Back to the KP, you could just increase it if it comes to that a little because even if someone uses MP3, or anything under tier three would be left completely open especially if whoever your fighting against around 10x your power but don't make the system too complex to the point RPing becomes too technical. (Kids do play and if it's a little too hard to understand, they'll probably lost interest.)
Build your KP past their Maximum? Depending, I know things like (Not mastered) SSJ provides a lot of energy but put stress on the body (Which has been hinted in the anime/manga) or an android that has a built in energy reactor core to increase how much they can use, even the share energy technique, Adsorb Ki techniques or taking the energy from the spirit bomb (If anyone will get that). I would set it to depend on the transformation or types of technique allowing them to gain a little more KP pass there max point however I would also add, once you gain your form energy, once you revert, you'll lose that energy. (Eg. You had 2/3 KP, You gain +3 KP and now you have 5/3 KP, you used up all your KP leaving you with 0/3, once you revert, your KP should be 0/3 or -3 if you want to do that) but using this, the regeneration for KP would probably have to be disable during an form or slower and even only give such an boost once per a thread.
Yes, it should be optional, as long as both party can agree on it. If you have another Version than you should probably show it as well.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jun 17, 2015 4:47:07 GMT
The problem with allowing a player with a high PL have a higher starting maximum is that this would widen the competitive gap between a high PL person and a low PL person. Let's say we give a person +1 max KP every 100,000 PL, as was my original concept that I no longer like so much.
A person who has 110,000 PL would have 1 KP over someone with 60,000 PL. This doesn't sound like much, but given how the system operates, it would be enough for the person to deliver a killing shot in two rounds, given how fighting currently works here. The KP system originated during a popular discussion trying to avoid the quick bursts of 2-3 round tech spam fights that we've been witnessing in competitive play between players.
Further, someone with 100,001 PL would have 1 more tech point than someone with 99,999 PL and that seems off. I'm not sure how you could make scaling maximums without hard pl lines to cross.
Currently, the KP is intuitively linked to your PL. If a person's PL is 1,000,000 and they just fired an 1,000,000 PL MP3 at their enemy, they expended all 3 of their KP points and 100% of their transmittable energy. Their ki will refocus, but it will non-instantly. Examples in canon can be shown of this, where ultimate energy attacks have drained a fighter's energy for a while.
The exact same process unfolds with someone who was 1,000 PL. MP3 techniques damage for 100% of your PL, so the tech takes 100% of your Ki. N1s on the other hand damage for 1/3rd of your ki, will take 1/3rd of your ki, or 1 KP, and so they will be relegated to the more normal exchanges of ki that you see in the manga and show.
It's by no means a perfect system (nothing is), but in my opinion it's the best system for the way our fights go. Going beyond 3 depending on transformations, or going into negatives, could be interesting, but another game designer once pointed out to me that simplicity is incredibly important, and I tend to agree with that now. The 3/3 KP system is something that no one has to really think hard about, it's a guideline for their combat tech use that is always equal to their tech tier and so is very easy to understand without having to reference.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 7:53:03 GMT
I forget to add this question before: I didn't understand the 100% thing, is it 100% your power against the 33% of another person's technique or..?
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Post by Vennel on Jun 17, 2015 8:01:32 GMT
It means that each tier allows you to dodge an attack with a PL of up to that percentage of your own PL.
To help that make a bit more sense:
Fighter A has a power level of 20'000
Fighter B has a power level of 5'000
Fighter A uses an N1 skill against fighter B, which has a PL of 6'600.
To avoid this attack, Fighter B must use an SU2 level support technique that could dodge it, due to it allowing the fighter to dodge up to 200% of their PL. An SU3 skill would also work, but be a larger waste of KP, and an SU1 skill would only allow for the fighter to dodge an attack with a PL of 5'000 at best (though anything below that could also be avoided).
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Post by Zuni on Jun 17, 2015 8:59:37 GMT
(Note that the above example still works with 115% because 6,600 is still above the 5,750 that would be the 'functionally equal' level for that fighter.)
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jun 24, 2015 21:36:36 GMT
RESURRECTOR.
I think, with the introduction of a KP system, it would be better to make it clear what some support techniques do.
In my battle with Wyntre, for instance, I just successfully utilised my Solar Flare attack. However, despite this, Wyntre has begun to charge a beam attack despite being temporarily blinded and in pain. While it can be potentially justified, I believe attacks such as the Solar Flare should make it so that opponents can not charge or retaliate in the following post.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 24, 2015 21:39:17 GMT
I think that's fair. Solar Flare and its derivatives are a 'stun' technique that doesn't do damage in exchange for being harder to negate.
OTOH, I think it might be worth considering raising the cost of using such a technique to 2 KP in order to limit the amount of damage you can be staring down immediately after. Solar Flare > Destructo Disk might be a cool tactic in theory, in practice, it would be super lame to experience.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jun 24, 2015 21:40:29 GMT
Well, the max you could do post-Flare is an MP2 with potentially one additional charge before the stun effect wears off. But perhaps.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 24, 2015 21:42:58 GMT
In practice in the show, we mostly see it used defensively - we could also consider having 'graded' solar flare. SU1 your opponent can charge, SU2 they can't charge, SU3 they can't use their own SU1 defense on the next round (still probably not worth it, tactically, but you never know)
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jun 24, 2015 21:45:01 GMT
Mm. Something like that could be for 'stun' techniques in general (which could also be flavoured as a paralysing jab, which is how I was initially going to do it for Zucc before I realised we didn't really have any mechanics in general). I'm not sure what the point of SU1 would be with your above suggestions, though.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 24, 2015 21:46:01 GMT
It buys you a round to run away. Solar flare > Suppress and flee is a great escape method and the best your opponent can do is charge something widespread and hope.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2015 23:21:28 GMT
So far as I'm concerned, the current 'combat' system seems to be good. I'm used to boards that consider combat a communications exercise. If you don't want to take hits, then don't, but don't expect people to RP with you then. You've already countered that with how the system is now, and adding more to it would only make it more confusing for new users who aren't used to things like actively recording power levels, items, etc.
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