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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 0:46:57 GMT
I'm not a fan, I think of keeping the pool of action points there static. Someone who is stronger should be capable of more. Why should a Super Kamehameha drain someone who has used it a hundred times the same as someone who just learned it? It'd be like saying a marathon runner gets tired out the same rate that a casual jogger would.
I get that the two attacks would have different impact damage based on power level, but I don't think that saying they drain the same solves the problem. I mean, if I know that I'm ten, twenty, or a hundred times more powerful than my opponent, why would I put my full energy behind an attack if I know that a mere fraction of my power is enough to overwhelm them?
To me, the better solution would be to limit the number of times a T3 attack can be used in a thread. In this way, you still have a method in place that discourages spamming while avoiding the above problem (Marathon runner vs jogger).
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Post by Cipher 24 on Jun 25, 2015 1:20:26 GMT
I'm not a fan, I think of keeping the pool of action points there static. Someone who is stronger should be capable of more. Why should a Super Kamehameha drain someone who has used it a hundred times the same as someone who just learned it? It'd be like saying a marathon runner gets tired out the same rate that a casual jogger would. I get that the two attacks would have different impact damage based on power level, but I don't think that saying they drain the same solves the problem. I mean, if I know that I'm ten, twenty, or a hundred times more powerful than my opponent, why would I put my full energy behind an attack if I know that a mere fraction of my power is enough to overwhelm them? To me, the better solution would be to limit the number of times a T3 attack can be used in a thread. In this way, you still have a method in place that discourages spamming while avoiding the above problem (Marathon runner vs jogger). Bharhash, the technique tiers basically show how much of your power you can put into it without charging. MP3 you're able to put all your energy into it. Regardless if your PL is 1,000 or 100,000, doing that's going to tire you. Obviously, the latter will do more than the former, but that doesn't change the fact that both sides threw everything they had into it. If you're fighting an opponent where you don't need to use all your strength, then DONT. When you get a tech, it always starts at tier 1 and goes up to tier 3. Unless I'm mistaking, you can just easily use a lesser tier. Do the job without needlessly tiring yourself going overkill.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 5:08:46 GMT
I wanted to know about the basic Ki blast to this system, I'm not sure if it'll even matter that much just to make sure ya know?
I know Punch/Blast does 33% of the PL flat and whatnot but with this system, how much KP would one blast take since it is also apart of the 'Ki' tree.
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Jun 25, 2015 5:16:55 GMT
I wanted to know about the basic Ki blast to this system, I'm not sure if it'll even matter that much just to make sure ya know?
I know Punch/Blast does 33% of the PL flat and whatnot but with this system, how much KP would one blast take since it is also apart of the 'Ki' tree. From what's being discussed I imagine basic ki volleys and punches don't affect your KP (since they both count as a basic attack just with a different bit of flare to them) From my understanding anything not listed as a tech counts as a basic attack and does 33% damage per post. So Captain Nova flying in and socking a thug in the jaw then kicking him away would do the same amount of damage as him hurling a few basic ki blasts at a far away enemy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 8:20:27 GMT
I wanted to know about the basic Ki blast to this system, I'm not sure if it'll even matter that much just to make sure ya know?
I know Punch/Blast does 33% of the PL flat and whatnot but with this system, how much KP would one blast take since it is also apart of the 'Ki' tree. From what's being discussed I imagine basic ki volleys and punches don't affect your KP (since they both count as a basic attack just with a different bit of flare to them) From my understanding anything not listed as a tech counts as a basic attack and does 33% damage per post. So Captain Nova flying in and socking a thug in the jaw then kicking him away would do the same amount of damage as him hurling a few basic ki blasts at a far away enemy. I'm believing that you can control the output of your attack so it isn't as lethal as it should be in a situation like 'Nova' kicking a thug and not remove a body part (Since not all humans has high power AND that entire statement is only my opinion), I know blast are just a long range version of melee, just couldn't understand why Blast and N1 are basically the same power outlet yet Blast doesn't take a KP. Yeah I do know N1 can charge but still.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 25, 2015 8:36:16 GMT
Because you can charge an N1 attack to be better, you can't charge 'basic' blasts.
Also, the 33% is a bit more wishy-washy with non-technique attacks. I remember Rev saying in chat that he thought it should be around 10%-20% ... either way, basically 'notably weaker than something you paid a slot for'. This is something that could use some clarification I think.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 12:03:18 GMT
Well for the KP system, how about you can gain more KP by half your highest transformation? Lets use Zuni for this example. Zuni has Daemonic Will (x3) and so when Zuni is not transformed she gains 1.5(2 for rounded up) KP, since her body is used to transforming to the advanced state, and can keep it up for long periods of time. During events when someone doesn't want to accept the power, like the Makyo Star, Zuni would instead get 4 KP, giving a reason to not power up! So than its a choice, do I want to fight longer and outlast my opponent, or do I want to overpower or close the gap?
I believe with that system we would both give alternate play instead of just straight up transformations all the time, and give some people who are equal more ways to fight a foe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 13:08:08 GMT
Well for the KP system, how about you can gain more KP by half your highest transformation? Lets use Zuni for this example. Zuni has Daemonic Will (x3) and so when Zuni is not transformed she gains 1.5(2 for rounded up) KP, since her body is used to transforming to the advanced state, and can keep it up for long periods of time. During events when someone doesn't want to accept the power, like the Makyo Star, Zuni would instead get 4 KP, giving a reason to not power up! So than its a choice, do I want to fight longer and outlast my opponent, or do I want to overpower or close the gap? I believe with that system we would both give alternate play instead of just straight up transformations all the time, and give some people who are equal more ways to fight a foe. I believe I made that suggestion already, or something rather similar to it in my first post on this thread.
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Post by Hyoza on Jun 26, 2015 22:07:51 GMT
Bonus KP based on PL is unneeded and will just make fighting players beyond your PL range harder than it already is (which is hard enough).
All offensive and defensive moves are proportionate to your PL under the KP system.
Lowbies are already gonna struggle to effectively block/evade the attacks of higher-level players, who will be able to use lower-cost techs to do effective damage to their opponents (if the gap is large), and will have access to a wider variety of techniques.
Let's also take into account the fact that the reason this system was introduced was players keep spamming dodges and powerful techniques to unreasonable levels. begging for high-level players to be given back the spam-ability makes me wonder why.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 22:18:07 GMT
The way that a previous DBZ board I was on did it was that there were three tiers of moves; basic, advanced, and finishers. Basic attacks were mostly low damage abilities (1-4 on a 10 point system) like a basic energy beam attack or multiple energy blasts, but could be used an unlimited number of times. Advanced moves were like the Kamehameha, which did more damage (5-7) and were a little more limited in the number of times you could use them, but they were chargeable as well (basic attacks weren't). And then finishers were a one-time use attack (like Final Flash or Neo Tri-Beam) that did huge amounts of damage, but in addition to the aforementioned one-time use were also prohibited from being used for your first four posts in a thread.
Do we need that kind of restrictions and divisions? No, but I think the simpler and more effective solution than implementing a partial or full combat system would be to simply restrict the number of times someone can use an T3 ability or dodge in a thread. The latter might be semi-fixed, with sufficient power levels awarded a few more dodge points, but set a hard limit of the super moves.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 26, 2015 23:52:33 GMT
Bonus KP based on PL is unneeded and will just make fighting players beyond your PL range harder than it already is (which is hard enough). All offensive and defensive moves are proportionate to your PL under the KP system. Lowbies are already gonna struggle to effectively block/evade the attacks of higher-level players, who will be able to use lower-cost techs to do effective damage to their opponents (if the gap is large), and will have access to a wider variety of techniques. Let's also take into account the fact that the reason this system was introduced was players keep spamming dodges and powerful techniques to unreasonable levels. begging for high-level players to be given back the spam-ability makes me wonder why. Having thought about it a bit more, I think I agree that growing the ki pool will lead to undesirable results. Part of the design goal expressed in the combat rules is that it should be possible - though difficult - to achieve victory within 60% of your opponent's PL. 3 KP gives you that because, ultimately, what you're trying to do is bait out and deal with your opponent's KP, which will be a challenge, but it is theoretically possible for you to manage that and then score a big hit of your own. From the way people talk in the cbox sometimes it is easy to get the impression that fights are a foregone conclusion with even relatively minor gaps in power - we should be trying to move away from that whilst also combating tech spam IMO.
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Bing Gan
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Post by Bing Gan on Jun 27, 2015 12:42:47 GMT
I personally love the 3 points of KP idea. It's the perfect amount for all levels, though if it proves to be somewhat problematic we could always switch to a 4 point pool.
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Post by Kaile on Aug 25, 2015 10:27:06 GMT
correct me if I'm wrong but why? i get you want to 'limit ki spam' but this type of system simply makes combat threads take far longer than they have any right to be. only being able to fire off one tier 3 attack every 4 posts? just based off the show if we assume each post takes between 6 seconds to a minute that's like saying each kamehameha takes goku almost 4 minutes to fire them off but as we can see it doesn't.... just not a fan of limiting combat. Especially when we have the honor system.
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Post by Kaula on Aug 25, 2015 11:11:43 GMT
It's been soundly tested. Even being used in DEs and sagas now. I'd also like to note that a member had mentioned that he was a bit weary, but after a fight with me and him using it he felt that it was "honestly more fun then spammy spams." Anyway, the reason why people can't fire off a T3 or T4(special) every single attack is because it's an attack that uses 100% of their PL. Also, a normal Kamehameha isn't an MP3, it's an N1. That'd be like an ultimate kamehameha for MP3. So yeah. You use 100% of your PL. Got nothing left. You have to recharge. It makes sense, it's already being implemented in the site pretty much. Maybe you should try it before you decide you hate it.
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Tao Lung
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Post by Tao Lung on Aug 25, 2015 18:21:20 GMT
Honestly speaking I've always been more of a free-form roleplayer and do believe a KP system should be entirely optional before the start of a thread, although forced on threads that are having too much OOC argument over who can do what.
Now, if the idea is that technique tiers operate on a percentage of you power level (33-100%) then I would say no matter your power level, you stick with 3 starting points. Independantly of whether you have 1.000 pl or 1.000.000 pl, after 33% of your power put into a tech (tier 1, 1 KP), there’ll always be 67% of your power left only. I also think charging shouldn’t use extra KPs (since you remain still, charging) and that by the end of the post everyone should state their remaining KPs, to make it easier to keep track.
Back when the injury system was suggested, I began to think of a “fatigue” system (much like a KP system) to be used, in case people weren't able to keep a friendly enough thread to use only good sense to roleplay. Since this KP thing came up, I would like to take the opportunity to share with you the ideas I had. It’s similar to the idea of Ki Points, but rather than KP you would have something called “Fatigue” that would always start at 0.
As you take actions other than basic ki blasts and punches, you would raise your fatigue gauge, which max at 100 points (meaning you’re at 100% fatigue, at which point you’re completely drained). Different actions would impact fatigue differently: - A Tier 1 technique increases fatigue by +10 - A Tier 2 Technique increases fatigue by +20 - A Tier 3 technique increases fatigue by +33
Tier 3 was made to be able to be used up to 3 times, because the general idea for the injury system was also “three strikes at 100%, you’re out”.
At anytime you reach a fatigue meter of 100 (meaning you used up 100% of your energy), you’re out of energy for the battle, so although you can pretty much fire a Tier 2 after accumulating 80% fatigue, for example, that would be your last resource, as you would be out of energy for the battle. So you would have to be smart on how to manage your fatigue gauge.
Ways to recover from fatigue, like suggested for the KP system, was a passive recovery as long as you used only basic ki blasts, punches or did dialogue only. My idea was -5 fatigue… perhaps even -10 if you thought -5 was too low. Others ways would include: - A senzu beam (-100 fatigue) - Transformation (heals -50 fatigue)
The transformation thing was just to foment battle epicness, so people would save their transformation for later, rather than powering up to their fullest in the beginning of the battle, for tactical purposes.
Optional rules would be raising fatigue for when you tried to dodge something stronger than you or block (block would would raise fatigue by a lower ammount, since it is implied you take “some damage” doing so). I didn’t put much thought in how much the block / dodge thing would use up back then, though.
Just wanted share this one with you now that a KP system is being actually discussed. Basically, it is the same thing as the current proposal, although using a 100 points system rather than 3, which I believe is more malleable, although keeping the same idea of simplicity.
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