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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 2:01:41 GMT
At the time of this writing the Pre-approved Technique list shows Barriers as their own special category of techniques. You may think that it would be a good idea to pick one up, that it might be useful during a heated conflict. Sadly, this is currently not true. Barriers suck. Their only value is in their plot potential, mechanically they are useless.
Barriers as they are function in this manner. You charge it just like an attack at 33/66/100% per turn depending on rank. When used it creates a 1 post defense that cannot do damage. It has two variants, Damaging and Sustained. Damaging lets the barrier do damage like a normal attack, and Sustained allows the barrier to remain for up to 3 posts or until its power is expended, whichever comes first.
In every situation that one might want to use a barrier there are much better alternatives. If protecting only yourself, then the Afterimage technique is much better. If protecting a group from a single big attack, responding with your own attack is better, because it doesn't take a variant to do damage to your opponent like a barrier does. If protecting a group from a splitting attack, likewise using a splitting attack in counter is better than using a Barrier. Barrier's are simply subpar choices mechanically.
My solution however is simple. Quit treating Barriers as a different kind of technique from an attack.
So far, all attacks are capable of being any shape or size the user wants them to be. Spheres, beams, cones, omni-directional explosions... the shape of your attack and the range it can reach has no bearing on its power in our current system. So why can't we just say that Barriers are attacks shaped like a hollow sphere surrounding the user/target? If we just made barriers as a certain shape for an attack we can already say we've improved it. The damaging variant would no longer be necessary as it is already capable of damaging an opponent. There, now you get more utility out of a barrier technique, but it frees up the user to attach other types of variants to their tech tree. Stunning Barriers anyone?
And since barriers are now attacks, we also don't need the sustaining variant either. The Damage over Time variant could just as easily fill this role. Or, if people are attached to the concept of a barrier that sticks around until it runs out of power, then perhaps the following variant would be a good alternative...
Barrier - Techniques with the Barrier variant cannot be used to cause damage even indirectly, but remain in effect until their power has been exhausted through collision with other techniques.
Honestly I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of such a variant doubling the power of the technique, due to not being able to cause damage with it even indirectly being a big drawback, but I can understand if this might be viewed as too powerful by staff.
So there are my ideas on how to make Barriers a useful technique to have in combat beyond just their plot value, please tell me your thoughts and ideas on this! Refining this is appreciated!
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Jul 16, 2016 2:16:32 GMT
I mean, if they are mechanically underperforming compared to straight Attacks, it might be nice to bring them up to par (since they already count as Offensive Tech).
I was looking into picking a Barrier Technique up for a character, because it felt like it would fit, but had to struggle with taking a Barrier when it would honestly make more sense to just pick up Afterimage instead, since that dodges for 100% of PL as opposed to the (charge-able though) Barrier at 33%.
I still opted for the Barrier, because thematically it seemed fitting, but it would be nice if it wasn't an inferior option to just shooting off my 33% Beam instead.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 2:35:08 GMT
I think you can pretty much write what kind of shape your barrier takes when taking an attack by how you describe it in its initial description when creating the technique. For example: Guts Barrier: This barrier takes the shape of one fists' and guards them from an attack that deals X% damage. This barrier only covers their hands but when an energy attack is incoming allows them to punch it and negate the effects of it when they strike it if it is within the barrier's power range. That said, maybe some other form of variation is in order for them. I see the problem with barriers probably being that far too many energy based beams, blasts, and sphere attacks are made compared to actual martial arts moves that they might be more useful in blocking since in the show a barrier was used often against physical attacks I felt more then energy attacks but its most interesting use seemed to be the small spar between Goku and Trunks. Goku formed a barrier around his hand and no mater how many times Trunks struck with his sword it made his sword useless. Even though my support technique for Denim called Supple Slam is a technique meant to grab and flip someone during a physical strike I doubt I'll get to use it simply because most people tend to fire a laser beam at someone up to 20-100 feet away at least. Counterattacking those with a barrier is probably possible but you'd have to make it some kind of mobile energy shield because the moment you do use it the person could likely fire off another energy attack and you'd still be standing in the same place. Physical combat here isn't really written into the system as a percentage and so when people fight I think I've tended to see them use energy blasts more then anything else so far to help ensure they kill their opponents thus far with unique special techniques they have learned. For example, I believe Walker just literally opened a portal in this thread and literally took Articho's head without even having to touch him much. It was disgusting but really not interesting insofar as I kind of don't feel like Articho put up much of a fight when he probably had the best chance of everyone in that thread to do so. I'm not sure if the initial barrier type you speak of us having on the site Katsu or the Afterimage technique could have helped him or not but without these kinds of moves DE fights sound like they may get kind of dull depending on who you choose to challenge. I find barriers troublesome in the regard that they seem to be a physical countermeasure more often an energy blast countermeasure thus meaning we're not going to find much use for them here because people tend to use the second type of attack offered.
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Post by Kizuki on Jul 16, 2016 2:52:27 GMT
I'm going to try my best to break down your post pointing out the most important parts, so if I miss something please feel free to let me know.
As Barriers are now, they are pretty useful, in my opinion. After Image / Zanzoken is a technique that can only be used if it's a sure thing, meaning you dodge over 100% of your opponent's attacking PL. Barriers, on the other hand, can break down an attack to more manageable levels, whether they are Sustained, Damaging, or just a 1 use protection item in your post. But I think we all already knew that.
To be honest, I'm very much opposed to the Sustained variants being removed for simply a Damaging variant. Not everything is about damage. It may seem like an odd concept, but there is perks to playing the "tank" role in a thread. I give you 2 scenarios: - In a solo thread, you can open up with a Sustained Barrier that will leave you protected for three rounds or until the barrier is destroyed completely. If you are powerful enough, either through base PL or transformation PL, you are a literal tank. Imagine throwing up a barrier and being untouchable for three or so rounds, and being able to put your opponents out before they can even leave a mark on your skin. - In a group thread, which I am in right now, your "team mate" is about to be hit by a tech with so much damage that they'll either die, get knocked out, lose their attack's charge, etc. Throwing up a barrier is a way to make sure they continue their charge. What if that attack is at 500%, is a Genki Dama, or something else groundbreaking in the thread? Sure, an N1 could help in the same sense, but if there is any remaining energy left I'm almost certain it will still effect the original target. It's something that I'm working on the answer for, to be honest, but I'm remembering the Name DE when I asked a similar question and was told that answer. Perhaps things have changed since then?
Anyway, I think you make some goods points. Though, in my head, I would like to see the original Barrier technique be the Sustained version, while damaging versions are the variants. I know it doesn't help with what you're looking for (sorry, lol) but in my head I see Barriers as being a defense mechanism first, and anything extra, like damage, being a variant.
Let me know if I missed anything, Katsu.
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Post by Kizuki on Jul 16, 2016 2:56:19 GMT
For example, I believe Walker just literally opened a portal in this thread and literally took Articho's head without even having to touch him much. It was disgusting but really not interesting insofar as I kind of don't feel like Articho put up much of a fight when he probably had the best chance of everyone in that thread to do so. I'm not sure if the initial barrier type you speak of us having on the site Katsu or the Afterimage technique could have helped him or not but without these kinds of moves DE fights sound like they may get kind of dull depending on who you choose to challenge. I find barriers troublesome in the regard that they seem to be a physical countermeasure more often an energy blast countermeasure thus meaning we're not going to find much use for them here because people tend to use the second type of attack offered. To be honest, if Arti's PL was within range and he had the right techniques, a barrier may have been able to save his head (literally), breaking down the attack substantially rather than taking 100% of it and dying. Ki Charge for a few rounds + Barrier. It's quite simple. It's all situational and what you choose to take on as techniques. It's like a real RPG. Are you a tank? Are you a DoT character? At least that's how I like to think of it as, as there are plenty of technique choices on site to fill those roles. If you're at 1.5mill PL and trying to go up against an opponent who deals 9mill attacking PL effortlessly, there's little you can do to stop them.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jul 16, 2016 3:14:28 GMT
A long time ago the staff was mulling around the possibility of making barriers absorb 50% of the bleed-through damage as their beneficial quirk. Beyond that, currently, they can also expand to protect more than one person in situations it'd be unfeasible to attack-clash against (like defending against a splitting attack and protecting multiple targets).
I still think it should absorb half the bleed-through. That's how barriers were originally concocted, and that's how a lot of people's barrier tech language (including mine) is still written.
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Post by Rebecca E. Dewitt on Jul 16, 2016 3:16:09 GMT
Well, I myself have another idea to remedy this solution. Make Barriers equal in scaling to Afterimages, except the difference in Barriers and Afterimages is that you can't really do anything after using a barrier.
Essentially, since barriers can protect its user from the difference of stronger PLs (if the attack is stronger than the barrier itself), it should make sense that barriers would be alright. However, using barriers is only good until your opponent starts charging UP2s and MP3s, because of their scaling. Since afterimages follow the 'all or nothing' rule, I think Barriers should be able to withstand attacks, but the user would be unable to attack during the post he/she/it uses said barrier. It would still make the all-or-nothing afterimages still viable, while creating new life for barriers! (Also, you won't be able to charge the barriers if we go this route).
As for variants of barriers, the variants should also scale in a sense. For example, that damaging barrier would be that they could be at 100%, however the reflected damage would be half of what the barrier was able to block.
The reason why I suggest this is that although Barriers seem useful, the fact that people can block Techs with their own attacks and deal damage back at the attacker makes barriers pointless. As meeting a person's attack with another attack does the same exact thing that barriers should do, but with the added bonus of that attack being, well, an attack. No matter what, it seems like attacks to fight against other attacks is a better strategy than to have an actual shield.
And I see what you mean about charging up a barrier Kizuki, but that's the thing. Like I pointed out above, you can charge an attack to tank the stronger attack and get the same results; with the added benefit of not having to use a Tech Slot for something to do only defend. Sure it's a style choice, but if your barrier is going to literally be like an attack of the same tech level, then why have a barrier in the first place when you can have something better for that supposed barrier tech slot. Using an attack
Then again, I can guess you guys can see many problems within my solution, but I'm just slapping this together and (knowing me) repeating certain ideas over and over, but this is just an idea which could be the foundation for something better.
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Post by Defrosch on Jul 16, 2016 3:17:51 GMT
tbh barriers should innately be sustained without the need for a variant, if only because they don't do damage back like a regular attack does in a clash. Also, as a quick suggestion; because a Barrier is what it is, perhaps if they are within 80% of the attack coming at them, the 'bleedthrough' effect is nonexistent. Unlike a regular attack, which is more violent in nature rather than defensive. ¯\_(ᐛ)_/¯ das jus my 2 zenis tho EDIT: also Vi-Poi's suggestion about the barriers slrping up some of the attack is also neato, maybe if the barrier is stronger than the attack or sth?
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Post by Plato on Jul 16, 2016 3:21:25 GMT
Perhaps buff them to 66/133/200 percent with no charging just like an afterimage. It can be used on the fly to defend yourself with some advantage and disadvantages over Afterimage. Afterimage for a single attack being more but if you run into a weaker foe and need to shield somebody, it be your good too to use a barrier. Perhaps make it last 2 rounds baseline rather then just the one to make it have more possible long term value then a afterimage. Barriers also if you run into an attack over the three hundred percent cap you could use a quick fire maxed out barrier and block some of the damage, possible saving your life. That is just my tidbit on it
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Post by Kizuki on Jul 16, 2016 3:25:06 GMT
Sure it's a style choice, but if your barrier is going to literally be like an attack of the same tech level, then why have a barrier in the first place. There's some differences, though. My defense of the barrier in this case would be purely situational, though. A very specific scenario would be if you and your team are going up against a massive split attack. Your barrier would soak up all of those, while a regular attack can only disperse ONE of them, no matter how much stronger it is than the variant split attack. At that point, you have to choose who to protect, if it's a multi-death scenario.
A barrier would help in defending everyone evenly, tanking the entire attack as one and going from there.
Again, it's situational, and that's mostly how I view what techniques I apply for. "What would I REALLY need this for?" TBH, doing some math, at SSJ2 - x25 to a base PL of, let's say, 250k, my PL would be 6,250,000 PL. If I'm running solo (now, this is against someone by myself, mind you) and I open up with an N1 - 33% of my PL Sustained Barrier, I would be walking around with a Sustained Barrier of over 2million PL Units. This barrier would last for 3 rounds, or until someone knocks it down completely.
You may be asking yourself, well, what if no one attacks you in those three turns? Well, you've basically gained back the 1 KP it took to protect yourself in the second round, and can now work on attacking for the next 2.
Again, purely situational but that's a scenario I see in my head, making Barriers quite useful.
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Lily
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Post by Lily on Jul 16, 2016 3:30:29 GMT
There's some differences, though. My defense of the barrier in this case would be purely situational, though. A very specific scenario would be if you and your team are going up against a massive split attack. Your barrier would soak up all of those, while a regular attack can only disperse ONE of them, no matter how much stronger it is than the variant split attack. At that point, you have to choose who to protect, if it's a multi-death scenario. A barrier would help in defending everyone evenly, tanking the entire attack as one and going from there. But, with a Splitting Attack, could you not just counter that all with your own Splitting Attacking? Blast all their smaller attacks with your own? Unless it's implied that the Barrier's PL is measured up against a single Split Attack, and if greater, negates it, and continues to use the same PL check against all Splits, as opposed to the Splits hitting the barrier and being treated again like the barrier took one full attack.
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Post by Kizuki on Jul 16, 2016 3:35:19 GMT
There's some differences, though. My defense of the barrier in this case would be purely situational, though. A very specific scenario would be if you and your team are going up against a massive split attack. Your barrier would soak up all of those, while a regular attack can only disperse ONE of them, no matter how much stronger it is than the variant split attack. At that point, you have to choose who to protect, if it's a multi-death scenario. A barrier would help in defending everyone evenly, tanking the entire attack as one and going from there. But, with a Splitting Attack, could you not just counter that all with your own Splitting Attacking? Blast all their smaller attacks with your own? Unless it's implied that the Barrier's PL is measured up against a single Split Attack, and if greater, negates it, and continues to use the same PL check against all Splits, as opposed to the Splits hitting the barrier and being treated again like the barrier took one full attack. I'm pretty sure you could disperse one split attack with another, given you have a split attack variant of your own. Split Attacks, like other variants, have to be applied for and not everyone has them (I know I don't), but you probably knew that already. To my understanding, if a Barrier of 50k PL is going up against a split attack of 3 beams, 10k PL each it would be 50k vs 30k. Splits are divided up evenly, so even if it was negated attack by attack the outcome would be the same. If the Barrier was a Sustained Variant, and had rounds left to it, it would have a 20k PL life left. If it was a regular Barrier, even at 20k left it would disperse. I hope that answered you, Lily.
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Post by Kaula on Jul 16, 2016 4:23:58 GMT
A long time ago the staff was mulling around the possibility of making barriers absorb 50% of the bleed-through damage as their beneficial quirk. Beyond that, currently, they can also expand to protect more than one person in situations it'd be unfeasible to attack-clash against (like defending against a splitting attack and protecting multiple targets). I still think it should absorb half the bleed-through. That's how barriers were originally concocted, and that's how a lot of people's barrier tech language (including mine) is still written. Would have been a lot easier for Zexama to protect everyone then. :3c
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jul 16, 2016 5:07:26 GMT
Yeah, my idea is the 'bleedthrough protection' could be limited to 1 person, or some limited number, so as not to overpower it. Even if it was unlimited, I don't think it'd be too overpowering.
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Post by Kaula on Jul 16, 2016 6:05:17 GMT
I, for one, am remaining neutral on this. However, there's one thing I do know..
If Barriers get a buff, piercing variants need a buff as well, then.
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