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Post by President Bao on Nov 12, 2014 12:27:07 GMT
Okay, so first up, admin aren't forcing anything and never will/don't even have that ability - we enact community decisions, we don't make them ourselves. This discussion thread was put up well in advance of the corresponding poll, there was some brief discussion(see page 1) which settled with no ongoing protests as of the 22 of september, and after the corresponding poll (14 for and 1 against) the verdict was reached to proceed with implementing this injury concept. Such decisions are by no means set in stone, we are always just one suggestion/discussion/community vote away from reconsidering anything, and indeed if enough people agree with your assessment Kojima then we will see exactly that. However, to proceed with my aforementioned replies: ------- Okay, so injury's proposal came in response to observations about user interaction with the current game mechanics, what should be considered as a 'design problem' from which you then attempt to come up with various 'design solutions'. In this case the intentions for this 'solution' were 2 fold: 1. Primary: Clarify the relationship between your power level and your opponents attacks, to avoid the confusion that had been observed previously, so that an appropriate response is more easily reached. 2. Secondary: Clarify the benefits presented by regeneration, sensu beans and other restorative items/abilities, which previously had been absent There is a third, overarching requirement for these mechanics, perhaps the most important constraint of this game as a whole - complexity; the proposed solution must remain simple, especially given the interaction this system will by necessity present with up to three existing calculations(techniques, weights, pl comparison). ------ I ran through a number of solutions before coming up with the one I presented during site patch. The intent is that, even if you are much weaker than your opponent, they cannot 1 shot you. Even if you have no dodging moves, or barriers, or healing items/abilities, even if you literally take their beating face on, you can still put up a fight and sustain three 'critical' blows before you are down. Combat is otherwise intended to be played out just as it was previously, albeit possibly taking a little longer since in the old system it only took one such attack for you to be incapacitated, where as now you get three, and requiring an attack numerical equivalent to or higher than your current pl rather than just 80% of it. ---- In a battle between two equivalent opponents, the intention is that the two combatants will spend a majority of their battle checking and counter-checking to begin with, avoiding injury and fighting at their peak much like the major battles in Z with beam clashes, high intensity melee, dodges and blocks, surprise attacks and hasty retreats. Once one person is injured and the other is not, the intention is that either they set in motion a counter-play which will even out the battle, or they will now be mechanically in the role of someone fighting against the odds, involving the use of either their techniques, items, abilities, transformations or allies to counter their lack of raw base strength and overcome adversity, as goku has done countless times. Even if they take another critical blow(and given they are now weaker, it will be quicker for an opponent to be able to conjure attacks which, if they successfully hit, will cause further injury... an advantage their have earned fairly by having out played or out trained you in the preceding roleplay), they will still be in the game, and can still keeping fighting/use an equaliser. Only after the third 'death blow' do you finally have to concede defeat as your body fails you, the enemy having proven their might and given you a fitting battle of plays and counter-plays. -- Okay, there's some food for thought/response, I will address any specific counter-points/questions from here as we continue this interesting topic(that is addressed at everyone reading this). Just remember to remain civil and keep this discussion from being derailed, I see definite value in this line of questioning and critique so we don't want to get bogged down before it can be addressed fully .
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Kadbra
Rising Soul
PL: 23,827; Demonic Will (x3): 71,481 Makyo (x8) 190,616; Items: Heavy Weights (3,144.5 | 9,433.5 | 25,156); One-Use Space Pod; Black Great Sword; Senzu Bean 1; Zeni: 404
Tag: @kadbra
Posts: 106
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Post by Kadbra on Nov 12, 2014 13:48:49 GMT
I think I get what you're intending to do with the system now, Bao. Regeneration only has a tangible use in fights if you have a serious injury to begin with, so there has to be some indication to it. I think it's mostly a problem with the wording in the first post, really. It says 'unless stopped', but doesn't clarify what it means. Barrier techniques of the same rank? Throwing your own beam/special punch against it to nullify it? Or can you block with your physical prowess too, to reduce the effectiveness of an attack? As it reads currently, you either dodge, use a blocking tech that is at least as powerful, or you have lost the fight.
You lose because once you've lost 50% of your PL, you are usually at less than 60% of the PL your opponent has, so it doesn't even count as a hard fight, but rather a nearly impossible one. Perhaps another injury level of 75% could work, showing that you DEFINITELY got hurt, but can still try to keep up with your opponent without having no chance left. Also, as far as the series goes, it doesn't look like your Ki/Power Level in DBZ goes down from simple injury all that fast - the moment you get a hand shoved through your stomach and you nearly die, THAT'S when your PL starts to disappear and you're in deadly danger. As Ki is highly important for your PL, not your body alone, even a serious injury or two shouldn't be able to take away 50% of your PL, especially since Z Fighters and villains both are tenacious - they continue fighting even against foes that crippled them partially, and without instantly being a lost cause.
The three strikes rule is good in one way - weak characters don't get oneshotted. However, three hard levels aren't a good idea when fighting against people within the range of your PL. That's the main problem I see with the system. Of course, the way you explain your envisioned equally matched fights look nothing like the worst-case scenario, but the system as it is written allows for it to happen, and that, imo, has to change.
Sidenote, I actually remembered to switch accounts this time! Woooo!
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 18:32:28 GMT
Kadbra voiced most of my concerns with the way you have it Bao. I do have a few other things to add though.
When I joined this site I swear you guys did not want this site to become like any other in the fact that all that mattered was speed. By that I mean, with the current numbers just like Kadbra said, if you get the first big hit in the opponent loses so much pl that he is well out of the 65% challenging fight range to the point that he CANNOT put up a fight. Meaning that anyone can and some will do nothing but speed techs dodge and block techs and make a couple power techs to try and get that first hit in. Its a viable strategy, but when I joined the site I was looking forward to being able to creatively customize my character and not have to worry about keeping up with the next guys skills because if I didn't I'd have 0 chance.
I feel with this system you're either going to make fights last to long before the other takes a good hit, or to short where its no longer fun. In dbz they beat on each other melee wise constantly. They even took a good few ki shots at times that just singed them or slowed them down. I want that kind of fight, but I don't want to pay so dearly for taking damage that I disadvantage myself to the point where I cannot catch back up.
If I am at 1000, they are at 1000. They hit me, I lose 50% I go down to 500. I am well out of the 65% fighting chance but hard battle rule you guys have, since I am at 50% of my opponents power. Unless I have an instant healing item (one senzu bean) on me at the time. With only having one of these in a fight it does give SOME leeway. But I still feel 3 is to few. MY suggestion would to go closer to 5 if not five and lower the amount of damage so at least the first couple of hits won't put you so low that you HAVE to use a senzu bean to compete.
My other issue is going in the 65% rule. With that, you still have a chance but its going to be a hard fight. With this system you've disadvantaged them even more to the point that there is no point in fighting someone not within 80% unless you have several guys against one. My thing is, what if the lower guy was a good role player and a fighter and he wanted to see if he could beat someone well above him and potentially reap the rewards? With the system as it is before injury he is already hard pressed, now with this he can make NO mistakes what so ever. I just feel like the numbers need to be fiddled with.
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 21:24:52 GMT
Actually. If you're on equal footing and you get hit once and lowered to 50% of your strength your pushed beyond the 65% and out of the struggle range into you're just not going to win without healing or some kind of technique that boosts you up. Straight up, imo, this forces you to have to make and keep up with certain techs to be competitive.
Before anyone says you don't have to be competitive... Its a dbz rp, people are going to be, myself included.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 21:57:17 GMT
I do see how this system is flawed thanks to Kojima's above post, but let's look at this with an even smaller set of numbers just to show this. I've been working on trying to fix the issue since last night to come up with different ideas, but haven't made much headway thus far. Let me give another example that could be added on to Kojima's answer here that might show just how really flawed the system. I want an injury system, but after reviewing it and hearing the complaints it's not something that's going to be easily made to work if the consensus really is that mostly everyone wants this. I know I voted yes to this as did many other people, but after thinking about it for a while I've come to find it shouldn't be in this format. What's being discussed here is not final though. There is no poll here so what's being written here is not something ready to be voted on at all.
But on to my example.
--
Let's take a fight where your 100,000 PL fighter is pitted against someone with only 150,000 PL. This is going to be a fight of desperation in which the guy with 100,000 PL knows he can't easily win from the start due to being 66% of his foe's power. Now if you take 150,000 PL x (.33) for a novice technique you're doing 49,500 damage in one move to your foe if you're the stronger guy here. That's half the weaker guy's PL in one turn. IF you take two turns to charge it though you essentially leave only one percent chance for survival. Krillen had way better odds then that and he went up against practically every major foe in the series or was in the location where they were fighting.
Notice that the difference here is 100,000 versus 150,000. It's honestly too small of a power difference I think to allow for someone to wipe the floor against someone else. We need to revise this injury system to actually suit the numbers given. Now if anyone actually has an idea on how we can create an injury system without breaking the 65%/80% rule then do give a suggestion here. Otherwise plans should be scrapped for this or revisited at a much later date.
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 22:04:11 GMT
I have an idea I am going to hash out and present to you gentlemen in the near near future.
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Post by President Bao on Nov 19, 2014 4:47:58 GMT
Before I head off - Hitake, I believe you were going to make a thread for your idea? We've had other priorities crop up, but just posting as a reminder.
(Indeed, we've had some distractions recently but this is very much a live discussion - I am considering that we should perhaps implement a 'discussion roster', each new suggestion or topic like this can then be given a position on this queue which we will work though. That way, no topic gets 'ignored' or left in an unresolved state - a few poor people have experienced this issue)
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 19, 2014 5:04:54 GMT
I do, and I shall post it shortly. I just felt there was something else a bit more important on the table at the moment.
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Remo
Archived
Tag: @remo
Posts: 6
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Post by Remo on Dec 23, 2014 2:30:44 GMT
This discussion has been cold for over a month now and I have no clue if I'm kicking a dead horse or not but this doesn't seem resolved so here are my opinions on this:
I think we should not try to define a concrete in combat damage system due to the complexity of trying to do just that. I don't think that the numerous way damage can be avoided (dodging, beam clashing, shielding techniques, and others) has been brought up even with the current list of challenges against it. Instead we should just use the trust system that is already happening inside topics and define a damage system to tie battles together throughout the site. This system would be based on a win-lose scenario and carry over until the character has healed. This is my outline of the system that is running through my head:
Victors of a battle topic: -if they received significant damage there is a reduction of 25% of their powerlevel. Otherwise there is no change to them.
The character that lost a battle topic: -if they surrender before too much damage is dealt then there is a reduction of 25% of their powerlevel. -If they are soundly defeated there is a reduction of 50% of their powerlevel. -In the rare case that they are annialated or crushed (as could happen in fights with a difference above 65%) then there is a reduction of 75% of their powerlevel.
Ways to heal their character and restore their powerlevel: -allowing nature to "lick their wounds" restores 25% of their powerlevel each day. This could be done entirely OOC if needed. -Tier 1 tank restores 25% of their powerlevel on an single use, single uses can only occurr once per week. It also fully recovers them in one day. -Tier 2 tanks restores 75% of their powerlevel on a single use and can be used whenever. -Tier 3 tanks restores 100% of their powerlevel on a single use and provides a Zenkai bonus if restoring 75% damage. -Sensu beans revitalize character in combat providing an edge but doesn't affect this universal damage.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 19, 2015 6:14:06 GMT
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Tao Lung
Rising Soul
PL: 1,671; Intense Struggle (x3): 5,013; Items: 1 use space pod, Heavy Weights (2521.5| 7564.5); Zeni: 2797
Tag: @sacidepatinete
Posts: 172
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Post by Tao Lung on Mar 19, 2015 14:57:28 GMT
I can no longer vote on that as it's locked, but if I am to give my two cents on this, I don't like the idea at all. Mechanics will get overly complicated and broken. People will stop actually roleplaying their characters in combat to try and guarantee the first hit, seeing that it determines who wins the battle or not. The only way I could see an injury system working woud be with actual HP as any attack that isn't at least 100% of the target's pl is useless and a waste of energy. A punch or a basic ki blast has absolute no effect against people below 1/3 your power level, specially since they cannot be charged.
Recovery posts are really boring to do as well. It will limit interaction between players. This is a fighting-oriented roleplay. No one will roleplay being at 50% or 25% of their own power level and will remain stationary until they are healed.
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 19, 2015 15:26:31 GMT
I am in agreement with Tao. I feel as if combat should be freeform, and trust people to play fairly rather than placing in a system, for the reasons Tao stated.
And yeah. It's a combat-focused series in a combat-focused roleplay. In DBZ, most healing was 'off-screen' for a reason, and we don't follow our characters 100% of the time. If there had to be anything like a recovery system, then make it a 'cool down' timer. It makes sense to RP being injured after a hard fight; but should we force it and reduce the fun factor?
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 20, 2015 1:02:06 GMT
There isn't a formalized dodge system or rules in place, so I will have to sway softly to the no column on this. Dodge is the other side of the coin in this mechanic. People use dodge a lot already in fights instead of taking the hit, and I feel like this will lead to more instances of it.
I do like the idea of your ki diminshing as you take lots of punishment.
I also kind of like the idea of the tank providing some kinda post-DE bonuses, and to make the tanks worthwhile somehow in general.
If someone hits you with an MP3 thats in the 65%-80% range to you, you should at least get minor damage from it. Without a formalized dodge system, we're still relying on people having a spirit of fairness, but I think that this might make people want to do iffy dodges more.
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