Kadbra
Rising Soul
PL: 23,827; Demonic Will (x3): 71,481 Makyo (x8) 190,616; Items: Heavy Weights (3,144.5 | 9,433.5 | 25,156); One-Use Space Pod; Black Great Sword; Senzu Bean 1; Zeni: 404
Tag: @kadbra
Posts: 106
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Post by Kadbra on Nov 11, 2014 13:55:50 GMT
The trust system is the only real way to determine damage in combat from attacks that actually hit. Eating one big attack and being pretty much helpless against your opponent also goes against every canon Dragon Ball Z fight ever that wasn't a complete curbstomp - Frieza gets blasted with the Genkidama, which at his powerlevel at that point would probably count as an 'injury level' according to our rules, yet he still fights on without a sudden significant drop. Fighters in the DBZ world do take damage, and need to recover, as seen with Goku breaking every single bone in his body against Vegeta, but they continue fighting at high to peak efficiency even when badly hurt, and only once they get REALLY close to death do you notice any real dropoff in their fighting.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Nov 11, 2014 15:59:06 GMT
Keep in mind, he was throwing that a half power, true form Frieza. What Frieza obviously did was increase his create a barrier around himself that would exert the attack off... That or his death ball's energy actually took the brunt of the attack before Frieza took the hit directly. But still, Frieza being at half power was enough to withstand the spirit bomb, meaning Goku couldn't charge it any longer than necessary. He was able to take the blow simply because he was that strong... Kinda led to his downfall for not just simply destroying the bomb before firing his own death ball off. But, getting back to the thread's topic.
The intention of this mechanic is to remind everyone, "If you're taking this hit, you're going to feel it for the next couple of threads or so."
My opinion would be that it's better safe than sorry to install this system. I like the trust system as well, but the injury system is to reflect a character's consequences on taking a hit. It may not sound fun, but it's to be reasonable and concrete a timeline. Again, that's my opinion on why I'm saying yes to this system.
**ADD ON**
Another thing! It also would tell other players, "This guy's injured. Lemme do something about that," for better or worse for the injured person. You guys may not like that sound of that, but considering injuries take a lot of time to recover from, it's insane to say you're fighting at peek capacity after being injured! Gohan lost a good portion of his power blocking Vegeta from Cell's attack. Sure, Gohan was able to exert out a lot of energy, but he did have to get assistance from Vegeta and the others in taking Cell down.
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Post by Hinawa on Nov 11, 2014 16:36:32 GMT
Gohan lost the use of one arm, yet he was still able to hold Cell back for quite some time before the others stepped in to help him power back and overcome Cell's energy. Generally, I like the idea of needing recovery after a thread where you got injured, but the idea that taking a single hit while still in combat can take you out of it almost completely when fighting a guy on your own level isn't very compelling.
I'd say use the trust system for when you're still in the same fight. I haven't known you guys for as long as some others, but from what I've seen, nobody here would shrug off an attack on the same power level as their character, so there isn't any reason to worry about that. Then AFTER the fight where you got injured, the person grading your PL and Zeni gains can step in and say "Alright, you used up almost all of your Ki, your arm is broken. You'll be at 25% PL for upcoming threads until you recover." This is mostly to keep it more dynamic while still in the same fight. It rarely happens in DBZ that a character gets injured without hurting his opponent as well when they're roughly the same level, so keeping track of three static stages for a complex combination of used energy, injury and bodily exhaustion that affects both fighters seems arbitrary and anti-fun.
Edit: Woops, wrong account. Same guy here as Kadbra, working on my second char with this account atm.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Nov 11, 2014 23:06:55 GMT
Kojima, I hear what you are saying, but let me ask this: What makes you think this isn't using the trust system? Injuries are points your opponent's gonna exploit. You need to figure out how to put them on your own respective level. Shot to the eyes, groin, or any particular area that's considered a weak point on a humanoid should be exploited! Wait for a moment where their defenses are down and break their arm or leg with a swift kick! However, none of the injuries or anything can happen unless you CHOOSE to let an injury happen. This is putting numbers on a mechanic that we've been using in our role play already.
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Post by Hinawa on Nov 11, 2014 23:18:15 GMT
Pieter, I suggest giving injuries more levels than currently, if they are to be used. A single attack being able to knock off half of your PL is just insane. Why not make a list of debilities you can stack onto your opponent? That would go along with what you just said about going for the eyes, trying to crush someone's hand/arm, etc, and it would allow for more interesting roleplay. Nobody is EVER going to be hit by a 100% effective technique of their equal level opponent, because by letting that happen, you automatically lose the fight. That's the main problem here, the idea as suggested is too rough. Epic, long fights can't happen with that.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Nov 11, 2014 23:32:01 GMT
I agree with that, Hinawa. Specified injuries need to be made readily apparent, in how they're affecting a player's pl.
Going back to the Zenkai thing, Zenkai is hard to come by. The statement Bao's put up there is a bit vague and would require an explanation about how it'd work. From what I'm understanding, it's if someone who's in a critical state gets put in there, the player can recover no problem and would yield a Zenkai power boost. Not any standard condition. I'm talking their body's broken, probably lacerations causing internal bleeding; vital organ failure, and giant gashes causing our pints of vitality to pour out of them to the point the character's life is in danger if someone doesn't help them. Can't have Milac there 24-7 now with him being the new Guardian of Earth, watching over the world.
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 2:08:38 GMT
I have something to toss up here.
Who's going to want to or even allow themselves to take a hit when they know they are dead/or heading that way afterwards? This just seems like its urging people NOT to ever be hit at all at anytime because its such a huge deal that one good hit means you're crippled the rest of the fight.
I have to agree with Kojima on this. You're going to have to increase the amount of hits a person can take over all if you want this to work.
You also need to look at other things than just losing power level. If an arm is damaged, maybe you lose the ability to block as good or as effectively from damage because you only have one limb. Blood loss might slow you down and weaken your body depending on how bad it is, making the use of your attacks take more energy from you instead of costing you power level.
I get that you're wanting to give the player some form of tangible damage so that fights don't last forever, and that people HAVE to roleplay the damage out and that it does effect them in some way. But this feels like its moving away from the free form aspect. Soon we'll have people making techniques around just this to get the guaranteed first hit or increase their chances to do so because nothing else matters. The first hit will be so largely effective that it is all anyone will need.
So in my opinion. You're going about this the wrong way.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 2:23:08 GMT
One major reason for having this I think is that the thresh-hold between having an even fight and not having one you can win is only 15% because currently a near 80% similarity between power levels equals an even fight while a 65% similarity between power levels means a hard fight for the one with the weaker power level. I'll work on this and see if I can come up with some new ideas since the discussion as it is clearly not going in the direction of ever getting this approved by anyone. A vote on this would surely show this.
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 2:45:29 GMT
Just my thoughts for you Oni. I don't think anything other than this or a trust system would work if you want to keep it free form because it may force you guys to have an energy bar, a stamina bar, or a health bar or something else stat wise.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 2:48:26 GMT
Okay, well, I'm doing some things to fix that now.
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 2:56:26 GMT
The 80% and 65% power levels comes directly from the site itself. Players within 80% or more of each other are considered on equal terms, where someone near 65% of the others pl would have a much harder time winning but still have a chance. The difference between being equal or being on a lower level IS 15%
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 3:00:36 GMT
So - at 80% power, warriors are considered to be on equal footing. This is about the difference between Frieza and Goku when both were at full power on Namek, where Goku was shown to be the clear-cut victor (at least, in the manga). And, at 65% power, lower-level fighters can still hold their own against a much-stronger warrior. Below that and they'll have to plan accordingly and work together to beat a stronger foe.
This comes from the combat rules. The way I read the rules, as long as you are within 80% of that persons max power level you're still considered equal no matter the number.
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 3:02:31 GMT
The site rules don't say that. It says within 80% regardless of number is considered an even fight, or 65% is considered a harder fight. Please show me where in the site this changes.
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Hitake Itori
Rising Soul
PL: 13,972; Oozaru (x10): 139,720; Items: One Use Pod; Heavy Weights- 3493 | 34,930;Zeni: 611
Tag: @hiratakefujitora
Posts: 111
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Post by Hitake Itori on Nov 12, 2014 3:05:49 GMT
And that was my entire argument. With the current system, whoever gets the first hit wins. AND EVERYONE is going to want techs that generate that first hit because that's all it takes. At that point you either refuse to take hits from the other and it makes the fights last longer, or fights get so short that they no longer resemble a dbz fight and it gets boring.
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Post by President Bao on Nov 12, 2014 4:31:47 GMT
Got dragged away for work through lunch, but I'm up to speed now on this thread and will reply tonight (about 5 hours from current time). My intention is to clarify how the system as outlined in the beginning of this discussion thread is intended to work, the reasons for this systems proposal, and outline some specific scenarios of concern and the expected outcomes of these. I of course welcome alternate suggestions and discussions of any and all mechanics, that is indeed the foundation this site is meant to operate upon
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