Otto
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Post by Otto on Jan 12, 2016 0:28:11 GMT
I believe that reconstruct might be a bit broken at the moment because it makes us a little to fearless. The nerf I would suggest is making it so that absorb abilities (bios/majin) can deny a reconstruct. I get that there are plenty of ways we could justify an absorb not being a proper IC check (such as having backup copies of the android ready to go), but I feel it best aligns to canon as a good android check. Basically giving androids something to worry about in Saga/De, without removing the usefulness of the ability. This could also apply to human's reconstructing to android being denied by absorb.
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Bing Gan
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Post by Bing Gan on Jan 12, 2016 1:08:38 GMT
I think I'd be okay with that. Androids are in a good spot right now(I think?), so maybe this'll add a good dynamic rather than a straight nerf/buff.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 22, 2016 1:32:00 GMT
I was intending to make each additional rebuild cost more zenni, or give a ltd. no of rebuilds for a real death, for a while now. Rebuilds are a great part of android's perks but being unlimited as they are does seem a bit over-the-top.
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Post by Zuni on Jan 22, 2016 14:07:36 GMT
I would bring it in line with the afterlife cost - 1000 for your first because it is a big plus for the androids, then 2500, 10,000 and 17,500 zeni per additional time. You keep the initial advantage and a small benefit in that you don't have to buy yourself a new body, but it becomes a significant investment if you die over and over again.
I might also be tempted to have a third 10,000 zeni upgrade at 100,000 pl for say... 'Redundant Consciousness' that lets you halve the cost for rebirth but never get the advantage of absorbing or reduced Overdrive costs, for people who want to play up that Never Gonna Die goodness.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jan 22, 2016 22:14:23 GMT
I'd be more in line with Otto's suggestion than with Zuni, but the Rebuild is basically the Android's only worthwhile UC, and while we have brought the floor up for the bottom 3 endgame tiers -- Arcosians, Demons, and Androids -- if we make the costs the same as human AL there will be really no point in having it as a UC, as it'd turn the UC from being a perk into being a colossal disadvantage, because in AL you can have the opportunity to gain special moves and special PL boons while earning both Shoki + PL (plus boosted straight PL gains), and that is not available to Androids during a hugely scaled rebuild. The small amount of WC you'd save in the first death would pale in comparison with the disadvantages of having to soak up that WC in later deaths, with none of the advantages AL present.
If we're going to remove or downgrade the usefulness of the UC more significantly with tiered costs, we should consider giving them another UC that is more useful. One of Bao's justifications for Android tiering lower than others is because they have a nice rebuild scheme that allows them to be aggressive.
One problem with the absorb idea -- what if the Android is in an Open DE, and a low level Majin or B/A gets the absorb after doing none of the work? It could render the UC pointless, if any absorber can come in post-facto to deny the rebuild.
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Post by Zuni on Jan 22, 2016 22:19:50 GMT
The advantage to the rebuild over the afterlife is that you get to stay in the real world instead of being punted over to the area of the site with (usually) very few players, where you have to do fairly tedious solo threads to earn back a body and start doing (more) solo threads to get back to the place where everyone else is playing. Plus you can save in advance, which you can't do for shoki.
Even at the same cost in zeni as shoki, that's a fairly significant advantage. Plus I did say you should get the first one at 1000 instead of immediately jumping into huge escalating costs! Perhaps having that 'reset' after a certain amount of PL gain (50,000? 100,000?) would be a good compromise?
That said, I'm not aware of - in practice - a pandemic of android characters looking to rush into DEs all over the place, so this does seem like a problem that may only exist in theory rather than in actual gameplay.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jan 22, 2016 22:30:58 GMT
Those advantages become a matter of perspective given the nature of Shoki gains rewarding PL as well, along with the opportunity to gain very powerful techniques in AL, and by any comparison with other UCs they aren't that large and could be easily described as a disadvantage for the reasons I described.
I'd be more okay with a cooldown PL gap as you suggested there, but I'd rather us keep a system where Androids get the advantage of having a 1000 Zeni rebuild with the penalty of -never- getting to go to AL to gain training, if we're going to down the rebuild UC.
Don't forget, reconstruction isn't available only to Androids, it's also available to other species who want to jump ship and mechanize. One of the costs of that could not only be Zeni, but never being able to go back to AL again. This would also prevent people from mechanizing, dying, deciding they want to be a human again and trying to be revived as that. I think that'd be a suitable arrangement, because if you keep increasing the costs or have a null-rebuild option on the absorb, you would have to allow for Androids and Mechanized to enter AL at some point.
In the low Zeni rebuild, you could further temper this by having an android enter rebuild limbo if they don't have 1000z when they die, rather than shunting them out into AL.
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Otto
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Post by Otto on Jan 22, 2016 22:32:36 GMT
I think a more reasonable upscale would follow the percentage increase of the afterlife model. 1,000 to 4,000 to 7,000z would follow the same price hike rates as the afterlife revival. Still significantly cheaper than AL but w/ at least some real consequence. The issue with it right now is that a lot of us can toss away 1,000z like it is nothing. 7,000 for repeated dying is going to at least make an android stop and think before jumping into every DE they can.
It isn't being abused right now but doesn't mean it won't in the future. If SCAR were to become a high level threat, for the measly price of 1,000z a pop we could more or less have a never ending saga.
I concede that I don't have an answer for the absorb problem on the other solution. It might even hurt BA/Majin because they will probably be higher on the priority target list when they fight androids.
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Post by Zuni on Jan 22, 2016 22:37:26 GMT
Those advantages become a matter of perspective given the nature of Shoki gains rewarding PL as well, along with the opportunity to gain very powerful techniques in AL, and by any comparison with other UCs they aren't that large and could be easily described as a disadvantage for the reasons I described. I'd be more okay with a cooldown PL gap as you suggested there, but I'd rather us keep a system where Androids get the advantage of having a 1000 Zeni rebuild with the penalty of -never- getting to go to AL to gain training, if we're going to down the rebuild UC. Don't forget, reconstruction isn't available only to Androids, it's also available to other species who want to jump ship and mechanize. One of the costs of that could not only be Zeni, but never being able to go back to AL again. This would also prevent people from mechanizing, dying, deciding they want to be a human again and trying to be revived as that. I think that'd be a suitable arrangement, because if you keep increasing the costs or have a null-rebuild option on the absorb, you would have to allow for Androids and Mechanized to enter AL at some point. In the low Zeni rebuild, you could further temper this by having an android enter rebuild limbo if they don't have 1000z when they die, rather than shunting them out into AL. I don't know if I like the idea of androids NEVER being able to access heaven/hell and the trainers within - it implies some stuff about the soul and metaphysics of the DBZ universe that I would have some difficulty getting over. I understand that the afterlife is a potential benefit in game mechanics, but in real terms I think it still winds up being a penalty in practice. The more I've thought about it, the more I think this is also something that ought to wait to become a problem before it is addressed. If the site has gone on so long without android players pursuing DEs like mad things and abusing their 1000 zeni reconstruction, why nerf it now? If people start abusing it, then it can be looked at seriously... but I wouldn't devote too much energy to plugging purely theoretical holes in the system; that way lays madness.
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Otto
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Post by Otto on Jan 22, 2016 22:41:16 GMT
I would have to disagree on waiting to nerf it until someone exploits it. That is where people begin to think that they are being picked on.
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Post by Zuni on Jan 22, 2016 22:44:22 GMT
If they are abusing the system, they should not be surprised when their toy gets taken away.
Editing to make my point a bit clearer: This is true about LITERALLY EVERY aspect of the site. If people abuse it and it starts to ruin the fun for everyone else, it gets changed. This is not about victimizing individuals, it is about enforcing the real primary rule which is (as it is in every game really) 'don't be a dick to others'.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 22, 2016 22:51:28 GMT
The 1000z unlimited rebuild, to me, makes Androids way too safe. Its not as if there xmults makes them unplayable even with a nerfed rebuild, and even with a limited no./increasing cost rebuild they'd still be way more comfortable for saga play than most, and yeah, my opinion of the AL is that it only sometimes yields a good reward and is, more often than not, a barrier (given the shoki pursuit)--which, by the way, I'm in favor of. Gives death some negative connotation, which it should, while not being too harsh.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jan 22, 2016 22:55:45 GMT
Scaling with the matched %s would be much fairer for Androids/Mechanized and would still make it a bonus, though I'd like to see some kind of PL cooldown or time cooldown attached to that. I don't think the Zeni costs should be any higher than those %s, because really why would someone ever Mechanize into an Android if they'd be taking black-hole gains for the next 10,000 WC or so just to prepare for the next death? Looking at the cooldowns from an RP perspective, we could say that rebuilding a high-powered android is a herculean task (like building a death star) and having to rush it all the time from behind would be much more costly than having a smaller engineering team working over a longer period of time.
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Post by Zuni on Jan 22, 2016 22:55:55 GMT
They are totally the safe option...
... buuuuuut I don't think it is necessarily bad for that to be their 'thing'. All the races have a cool hook of some sort, and whilst Androids being safe isn't as sexy as, say, a demon's awesome attack or a biodroid's customization... it isn't any less valid for that - and I don't think it is abused.
Admittedly, I wasn't around for the last saga, but in the RR saga whether or not it was 'safe' didn't really come into it for the vast majority of people who rushed headlong into the fray, you know? I didn't feel the androids who turned up were at a significant advantage because they had less to lose - nor did I feel like they acted more recklessly than the rest of us who did have a lot to lose.
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Otto
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Post by Otto on Jan 22, 2016 22:57:15 GMT
The 1000z unlimited rebuild, to me, makes Androids way too safe. Its not as if there xmults makes them unplayable even with a nerfed rebuild, and even with a limited no./increasing cost rebuild they'd still be way more comfortable for saga play than most, and yeah, my opinion of the AL is that it only sometimes yields a good reward and is, more often than not, a barrier (given the shoki pursuit)--which, by the way, I'm in favor of. Gives death some negative connotation, which it should, while not being too harsh. 1,000z to 4,000z to 7,000z is what I would propose. That is a lot of PL training time lost recovering zeni if their is a lot of repeated use, which will edge the android out in a strength contest if the people they go after train pl while they are replacing zeni for the next body. I also like Vi's cooldown idea.
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