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Post by Natto on Oct 21, 2015 14:42:24 GMT
I believe having a tier system at all possibly damaging more than a improvement, especially if player can't get a track of where they are gameplay wise.
Also kizuki, I vehemently disagree that people who post a lot is due to them having nothing else to do. I can't speak for others, but I'm pretty busy myself and that was never stopped me from being one of the most active players here.
In fact, this helps my personal life as I have to keep on being able to multitask and manage my time. That's something really helpful in life in general. This way... My opinion is: people post based on their muse and actual will to role play.
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Post by Letrune on Oct 21, 2015 14:52:25 GMT
My posts are short and not so defensible on the matters, but I try to move the plot. However, I do not really agree with the tiering itself, myself... But mostly because it seems for advanced grade users. Maybe a mixed, compromised version of the existing system and a small bonus by your idea could work?
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Post by Kizuki on Oct 21, 2015 14:57:18 GMT
I believe having a tier system at all possibly damaging more than a improvement, especially if player can't get a track of where they are gameplay wise. Also kizuki, I vehemently disagree that people who post a lot is due to them having nothing else to do. I can't speak for others, but I'm pretty busy myself and that was never stopped me from being one of the most active players here. In fact, this helps my personal life as I have to keep on being able to multitask and manage my time. That's something really helpful in life in general. This way... My opinion is: people post based on their muse and actual will to role play. Ah, I apologize since my intention wasn't to imply that to EVERYONE. It was more of a personal thought on how to determine the alarmingly high PL's, that's all. There are people with a lot of free time on their hands, and if this is their only RP site then I would imagine they'd turn here a lot to do some RP. There are also people who have a full day of things to do and still find time to play, implementing it as part of their schedule for the day. It can be either or.
At the end of the day, it's all for fun and if all of someone's free time is spent RPing here then that's absolutely awesome. My intention wasn't to scold someone for it, I was just trying to make heads or tails of the situation. I'm on here as much as the next person, but I also make sure that my posts are important to my character, if that makes sense? For example, at the moment, up until Kizuki had confronted Xylo and Alaistair, I had NOTHING to write about. I could easily have threw up a few random posts since then, but it doesn't make sense for my character. Nothing is going on, everything between my last solo and Kizuki meeting up with his new "friends" is all filler and useless to me, and if I was in the business of grading threads, posts like that would get minimal gains if anything at all which is why I try to stay away from those type of posts as much as possible. Just a personal preference.
AGAIN, I'm not saying that in a way to scold anyone. It doesn't change certain things, though. Free time, some time, all the time .. I still feel that the "gains" grading could be modified before an entire site overhaul is implemented. I would stick behind modifying the grading multiple for solo's vs actual spar threads.
Sorry if anyone got offended by what I had said, it wasn't my intention at all.
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Oct 21, 2015 17:34:57 GMT
A tier system would reward people who focus on quality and telling a good story. The current system rewards people who consistently pump out 1,000+ Words per post. Increasing group bonuses will only increase that incentive creating a bloated mess to read. Also progression should be generally slowed to increase the sites longevity. We have a large amount of staff with different preferences and views and opinions so I think the assumption that it'd just be a circle jerk were we reward our friends and ignore everyone else is honestly a little insulting. People who show active development ought to be rewarded. If we are sticking with the current system I think Staff should grade more harshly to those who bloat their posts with needless fluff and be more rewarding to those who continually contribute to plots
Disclaimer: This message brought to you by someone who posts 500-1,000 posts regularly and has posted a solo reaching to nearly 20,000 words
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Post by Raisu Hanamura on Oct 21, 2015 17:59:32 GMT
We have a large amount of staff with different preferences and views and opinions so I think the assumption that it'd just be a circle jerk were we reward our friends and ignore everyone else is honestly a little insulting If this was aimed at my post in which I said spoke about the effects this would have on advancement, I apologize. It was not my inteion to imply that, only that it might be a matter of "I think I made majoy character development this post, but those grading do not think I made any at all" sort of disconnect, because writing can be subjective like this. And yes, I do agree that if we keep the same system, how grading is done should still be reevaluated.
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Post by Natto on Oct 21, 2015 18:24:47 GMT
Nicolas Mclendon I believe a milestone system integrated with the current pl system would be more rewarding to people aiming to create meaningful plots instead of transforming it into a tier system, which, as I said, I don't believe will be good at all as I explained. Sorry if it sounded insulting by my part, that's is not my intention not what I meant. What happens is: it's pretty much impossible to keep a record and track of all individual plots all characters here are developing and that could easily be missed and a person could be left to dust because of that. We tend to pay more attention to threads we personally care about, even as staff, since it's impossible to keep a good detailed record of everyone in order to be fair with a tier system. On the other hand, a milestone system to be added along with our current system, being it revamped with changes or not, is easy to keep a track and to be fair.
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Post by Tomoroko on Oct 21, 2015 18:39:18 GMT
Anyone who can post a 20k solo... *applauds* I can't do it... Lol not to save my life. So... I think the reason I feel a little targeted in this is because, while I'm definitely not the strongest, I've gained pl quickly because I love the site, and I love to rp. I've done it through both solos and group rp... I think my idea's are great, but others might think they are stupid... You know? I just feel a tier system would put more of a halt on a characters progression...
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
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Post by Vi-Poi on Oct 21, 2015 19:45:22 GMT
The problem with a Milestone system, is it couldn't be rewarded retroactively. It's somewhat hard to take over the Galaxy twice, after you already rule it. One of the best changes I think we could make right away is changing how Training works. Stop giving PL boons for solos, and start having it effect your modifiers. That coupled with the new changes to the end-game maluses will go a long way towards keeping the site together. I somewhat agree with your point that Tier System might become a staff-induced problem, and it's something I've brought up in the discussions we've had on it. But there are several net positives for it too, which I'll explain below. I know you're heavily against a Tier System Natto, but one of the paradoxical problems the site is experiencing is that very active and enthusiastic RPers shorten the lifespan of the site. It's great that people love Souls and want to write books worth about their characters (I'm guilty of that with Vi) but sooner than later people will be stretching beyond 500,000 PL base, and there is no guarantee they will branch out into other characters. How many people will be willing to write the quarter million words or whatever to be able to compete with the top-site PL? A determined outlier can go far beyond the mean activity level for the site. Any and all games should be focused on getting new players rather than fall into the trap of servicing the most-determined segment of the playerbase. Will a new player be willing to join a site that has a couple MSSJ3 and a couple of androids at 500k PL base calling the shots to mid-tier opposition? Or would they be more willing to play a game where competition was much more meaningful and advancement not so daunting? There are solutions to these problems besides the Tier system, such as eliminating Training gains and making them boost modifiers, making the automation reward WC less exactly, WC caps on all posts, diminishing returns on higher and higher WCs, etc. But these solutions are a must, if we want Souls to last for a long time. Tiering is attractive because it definitely eliminates the grind. There might be other ways to eliminate it, but Tiers are for certain to. I agree that 'main plots' being boosted over peripheral plots has the potential to become an issue, but someone who interjects themselves into ambitious, world-emotive, site-wide events should gain faster than someone who is off in their own clique corner all the time.
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Post by Natto on Oct 21, 2015 20:35:10 GMT
Okay Vi-Poi, I will try to answer it the best way I can: Milestone: That's a problem indeed, but it could be somewhat solved with a retroactive minor reward for people who achieved a Milestone before the system was implemented. It wouldn't be as great, but wouldn't allow the "effort to go to waste", if that was really need. Personally, I think that if your milestone was a minor one, it should be lost... Unfortunately it can't be helped, but something huge, a topnotch milestone should still be rewarded, although with a lesser bonus. Training and Solos: I actually like this idea, but I would have it somehow different: I believe training solos should allow for both PL gain and transformation bonus for weaker characters, and progressively lower the PL gain, until it became solely a transformation bonus, for 2 particular reasons: First - the new characters usually don't have a transformation at will, therefore training for them would be sort of pointless. Second - on martial arts, the better you get, the less immediate reward from training you get. On your first years you growth is impressive, later on it can take as long as a year or more to get better in a small detail. Strong Characters: Well... That part I disagree quite a lot. First and foremost I have tons of respect for your opinion and I realize it was plenty of good reasons behind your arguments, but, still, I disagree. I don't think that people who like the board and write a lot should be considered a real problem. What kills most RPG boards is not active players, it's quite the opposite: the very casual ones. Those are the ones who stall a thread for weeks for no particular reason other than being low on muse or something else. This tends to make people lose interest on the thread and, if that becomes too common, they lose interest on the board altogether. I've seen this happening tons of times, especially on a board named Vortex, based on Knights of the Zodiacs. Regular threads that weren't even 3 page long would take months to be finished. Also... There's really no way to avoid creating a huge gap between new players and old ones and that gap will increase with time, since, well... People that keep on playing will obviously achieve higher levels and beginners will still be beginners. Unless the staff stops growth of the older and stronger players, which will most likely kill their muse, because they will be somewhat punished for being active and old timers, and that's absolutely not fair at all. Tier System will make souls last longer? Well... It will recycle the player base more often yes... If it will make it last longer, I can't tell you. But it will surely push away a fair amount of older players, and I don't think that's the goal staff has in mind. Plot: I disagree here again. I believe the personal plots of players are just as relevant, because they will one day motivate them into a greater plot. Like, a character finally understand the meaning behind being abandoned by his parents and that leads him to aim for a higher goal, such as collecting all dragon balls, or maybe conquer the planet in order to change how things are, so that the bad thing won't happen again. I gave very obvious and clichè examples, just to be able to show my point in a clear way. On top of that, even with a Tier System, the high tier players will still be the ones able to move the major plots, and the only way to even that is to punish the ones who were, for some reason, rewarded into a high tier, and then it starts all over again. There's no perfect system whatsoever, and there will be flaws in any of them. I believe we have a pretty good, fair and objective system in play. Changing it to a complete subjective system would, in my humble opinion, do way more harm than good. It's difficult for a new player to trust such a system, where they have no way to understand how it works. It's even difficult for older players. And complete subjective is passive of much more abuse than a hybrid system that has at least some objectivity attached to it. We could reduce the precise measure of WC, maybe that will help. Lower the bonus after 1000 words, and lower it again after 2000 and so forth... Well... There's plenty to be studied and I believe we can improve this system we have. But changing it. Well... I'm against it. But it's always healthy to discuss =)
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Post by Hyoza on Oct 21, 2015 21:02:58 GMT
Natto you're deflecting all of your criticisms with straw man arguments.
Many of the creative things you are making it seem like this system would punish, would in fact be rewarded.
Perhaps your true concerns lie deeper?
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Post by Natto on Oct 21, 2015 21:17:03 GMT
Hyoza, I really hope you drop this accuser tone and this personal crusade against me.
If you can't read what I wrote, there's little I can do.
I wish no further discussion with you, since you keep on trying to find a way to attack me without any reason.
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Post by Tomoroko on Oct 21, 2015 21:46:45 GMT
Just... another little 2cents to throw in, and please no one get mad that I'm bringing this up but... I realize that a whole new system may or may not be implemented. It's being considered and may have a huge impact on the site... but until it is 100% that it is (or is not) being implemented, I don't think it's fair to anybody on the board that the threads to grade has come to a grinding halt...
I'm not saying that because I have threads up there, but i'm looking at the lowbies we are trying to consider with this new system, and some of them have quite a few threads waiting to be graded so that they can grow and continue to improve their characters.
If our PL will be turned into tier stuff (IF that's the way it goes) then it shouldn't stop members from growing in the here and now until it officially happens.
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Post by Aiami Lin on Oct 21, 2015 22:02:17 GMT
However, when the size of the board gets massive like this one and some others I had, it starts generating tons of problems, mostly because the staff would have to remain active and pay close attention to every single thread in order to be able to judge all users in a fair manner. It’s very easy to judge people’s plot that you barely know, since you just read some of the plot, sometimes jus the trivial ones, and then the character automatically sounds uninteresting.
See, I was thinking of something along the same lines that this might be a detriment to the tier system: graders would no longer just be calculating WC and quality modifiers and whatever else goes into the current grading equation, but instead they would have a much more in-depth job of having to read through the whole thread and judging quality or what have you from then. However, the more I thought about it, the more I figure this wouldn't be an issue if the RP was fun and enjoyable to read, which should be a goal as writers, I think, anyways, regardless of PL or tier systems. Hopefully this sort of grading would actually cut down on some of the problems like word bloating and would leave only good, fun writing to be read, which is much easier for everyone reading the thread, especially graders. Plot: I disagree here again. I believe the personal plots of players are just as relevant, because they will one day motivate them into a greater plot. Like, a character finally understand the meaning behind being abandoned by his parents and that leads him to aim for a higher goal, such as collecting all dragon balls, or maybe conquer the planet in order to change how things are, so that the bad thing won't happen again. I gave very obvious and clichè examples, just to be able to show my point in a clear way. I think personal arcs and plots are important for how we see the progression of our characters, so I agree here. Maybe something like the milestone system that's been discussed so much could be implemented? I'm not sure what kind of rewards or what have you would come about from meeting your set milestones through enjoyable, positive RP, but that could be a way to keep personal plots relevant to the new system. I still think I'm for the tier system over PL. I like PL, and I think it can be fun, and it gives a definite sense of constant advancement, but I also can see how it encourages pumping out solos and how that can hurt RP in its own way. However, a lot of people seem to like the PL system, and with automated grading coming it might make things a lot easier. If there's a way to fix the PL system as it is, maybe by de-incentive-izing (not a word, I know) solos or word-bloating as some have suggested, or perhaps adding something to encourage growth and interesting group RP over solos, it might fix the problems, but I'm not really sure. Take this with a grain of salt as I've only been around for a month, but that's just some of my updated thoughts on the matter.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Oct 22, 2015 2:07:08 GMT
Too many characters who have done not very much in the grand scheme of things outside of roleplaying by themselves or within little, established friendship groups have got to an extremely high level of power irreflective of actual, overarching significance. This is a community story, and frankly, having people who haven't contributed much to that story being the highest on site is an affront to what I wanted this site to be. Characters should be rewarded for how they influence the world, that was my intention - instead, thanks to a certain few monomanic members we now have a weird distribution of high-level characters who, honestly, aren't very good when it comes to playing with others, or even for internal character consistency and motive. The tier system was an idea I had to rectify this, probably by incorporating something similar to Zuni's milestone system. The fact is, Natto, the Tier system I proposed was put in place because, after watching the rapid escalation of your character (and to a lesser extent others like Vennel or Reikiko) I realised that the power-level-per-word system, in which people can post egregious-length posts which are filled (generally) with word-fluff to boost their gains, does not in the end subscribe to the original idea, that quality would be rewarded over quantity.
The way the milestone/tier system would work is very similar to the current threads 2 grade system; when roleplayer thinks they have done something which may merit a partial-or-full tier level up they would notify the staff board. And like how current quality grades are averaged by a group of staff, the tier-up would be evaluated by a group of staff to eliminate bias. There has to be a change to how the system works. By just fluffing up your posts artificially, which MANY PEOPLE HERE are guilty of, your character gets stronger artificially and negatively effects the board.
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Post by Cier Inedil on Oct 22, 2015 2:49:06 GMT
Ummm, a question. How about we may just reward a small bonus to people who play on similar PLs? Or a "story bonus" for those who make some interesting plotlines?
I know, this would make no real changes, but... I am fine with my thing, where the purple prose I do has the maximum possible information for the minimum wordcount, if people enjoy it. :3 The tier system eould make sense if it would ensure that similar levels are used... But that is a player-side consideration. Since I am not liking the idea of punishing people, I suggest a small reward... I got no good idea hoe, sadly.
Long story short: if some characters are together on 100, 150 and 50.000 PL, the highest PL person might just be a good sport and don't go to town with his/her power to derail any possible plotlines, just because in the anime might makes right. It is about fun. :3
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