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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jul 11, 2015 23:25:40 GMT
So, with the attack of Vipoi and the stream of characters in there, I've been wondering about what level of attacks would eviscerate people and leave them without a way to recover, and when people can't regenerate or heal with a senzu bean. Anyone have thoughts on this? I'm not recalling if there was a discussion like this in the past, but if there is, a link will be needed.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 11, 2015 23:35:06 GMT
I don't think this is the sort of thing you wanna get TOO specific on. That said, for me...
100% of your PL in damage is a 'serious' hit. Not enough to put you out on its own, but enough to really hurt.
200% of your PL in damage is 'limb removal' time, and probably the point where you are going to be wanting serious medical attention.
300% of your PL in damage is 'I am KO'd or dying' depending on the intent of the person behind the attack and its nature (physical trauma/small attacks are more likely to leave you in a state where someone else can revive you in my book).
We see characters revived from senzu bean usage after some incredible trauma - Tien vs Semi-Perfect Cell, Gohan vs Recoombe, that sort of thing. My rule of thumb would be that if someone can get to you within a reasonable timeframe (three posts?) and you haven't been totally vaporized or your head blown off, you can probably be revived.
That's how I'd do it anyway.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jul 12, 2015 0:09:16 GMT
Hmm... I had a similar thought, but I was thinking you could take your full power level+50% to take someone down to death. Perhaps 300% would be a good number for evisceration? I'm just being specific about, "This person is going to die, but how much is it to literally annihilate everything?"
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Post by Zuni on Jul 12, 2015 0:25:34 GMT
It really depends on the attack, there shouldn't be a hard and fast rule there.
A single kick is never going to complete erase someone from existence IMO - dragon ball z doesn't really do that, it does the 'you are punched through a mountain and unconscious' thing instead. Techniques like Death Beam can put a person on the cusp of death almost instantly (poor Piccolo) but it didn't kill him instantly.
You specifically need big energy attacks or headshots to accomplish that, I think. (Do we see many headshots in DBZ? The only one that comes to mind is 16). If the energy wave is big enough to completely cover your body, you're probably toast - unless you've got some reason to survive. Maybe this is a good potential 'side benefit' of Durability for the races who have it?
The numbers I pulled are also the numbers used (roughly) as a baseline for defending with dodge techniques in the KP system - +/- 15%. I think that's a good thing to keep in mind - it keeps it nice and simple if you pretty much go 'if I could dodge it for a level 1, it'd hurt like hell, if I could dodge it for a level 2, it is probably a fight ender, if I could dodge it for a level 3, it is probably gonna put me down'.
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Mayze
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Post by Mayze on Jul 12, 2015 0:35:51 GMT
100% is really damaging. 150% is serious injury that can be healed with senzu. 175% is probably death/ko. 200% is vaporized.
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Post by Zexama on Jul 12, 2015 0:49:44 GMT
100% is really damaging. 150% is death/ko/serious injury that can be healed with senzu. 200% is vaporized. Is this true? I don't like it, I prefer the system I was originally told. Being the one that Zuni showed.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jul 12, 2015 1:05:52 GMT
We should have a system where 100-150% is treated gravely, in my opinion. PL isn't HP, but looking at it from a gameplay perspective -- you beam-war against someone, who attacks you with 220% of your PL. 120% of your own PL bleeds through in the attack and hits you. So you shouldn't be dead/KO'ed?
If someone serially takes 100%+ damage in a fight, I'd see that as a big problem. Even once is a stretch, in my opinion.
It's loosely managed due to fights being more RP-centric, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with Vi-Poi taking a 150% PL bleedthrough hit and still being mostly-there and able to fight after, absence a Repair Pill or whatever. Even then I'd see it as an amazing thing to be around.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 12, 2015 6:04:44 GMT
In that case, the KP system needs to be reworked because afterimage technique and similar variants is vastly too powerful.
We've also got another thing here - it should be conceivable for people who are 60% of an opponent's PL to win.
If your opponent is throwing around level 2 techniques which are almost enough to kill you outright, and you'll be vaporized instantly by a level 3... that's just not the case.
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Post by Benetto Giri (Fluentinnerd) on Jul 12, 2015 6:29:17 GMT
There's always the concept that several strong hits will wear an opponent down, but I agree with over 100% being a major wound, over 150-175% being fatally injured, and I'd give 300% for just straight up obliteration. 65% isn't built to be able to win, it's stated that you're able to hold your own, but winning is a very unlikely option from 79-65%. It's 80% and up that has even odds. At that point, you need teamwork, fortune, and some good strategy to wound key points and dish out damage where it will make the most difference. If you're so inclined (like I am), battles can be played with an incredible amount of strategy. However, I digress. At a certain point, yeah, you're toast unless you have a really good reason as to why you aren't. Durability might make utter obliteration even harder, but there's a point where you're not getting up. Period.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 12, 2015 6:36:07 GMT
My mistake - 65% is the cutoff.
But at 65% power you should theoretically be able to win WITHOUT help. It clearly says that below the 65% cutoff, you need allies to help you out. If your opponent is able to put you out of the fight entirely with one solid level 2 hit, I don't think this design goal is fulfilled.
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Mayze
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Post by Mayze on Jul 12, 2015 17:22:15 GMT
Not anywhere did it say win. All it says is that they can hold their own, meaning they can hold them off for until allies arrive.
Also, still not in the favor of the kp system, but that's a off-topic.
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Jul 12, 2015 18:13:19 GMT
To hold one's own means one is able to compete meaning they have a chance to win but the odds will not be in their favor.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jul 14, 2015 18:55:18 GMT
I'd personally be against establishing any form of injury system, to a point. I think there needs to be a certain amount of tolerance to 'Vegeta' or 'Frieza' moments; there were multiple times in the series where villains took attacks, like the Kaioken x4 Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb, and should probably have been finished by them. We should allow scope for this, on occasion, and within context.
However, repeatedly doing this will be disallowed; your character isn't immortal.
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Post by Natto on Jul 14, 2015 19:08:59 GMT
I have to agree with Nicolas. To hold your own means you have a real chance of winning by yourself. This should be considered.
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Mojo
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Post by Mojo on Jul 14, 2015 21:41:41 GMT
Agreed, the original 'need allies', 'hold your own', and 'equal footing' system should be upheld by future design.
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