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Post by Toma on May 17, 2015 1:12:04 GMT
Alright, so I've been talking with a lot of people in the C-Box, and we've come to an agreement that the Gi System is silly. It's nothing more than an OOC barrier that stops you from learning the more powerful techniques unless you pay 1500 Zeni or something like that for them. And, even then, the teacher DOES NOT HAVE TO TEACH YOU.
Personally, I think this system should be removed and simply reduced to just having the masters of the respective schools teach these characters their techniques/allowing other students to teach them.
And by "allowing other students to teach them" I mean, allow other players, whom the master of the school trusts, to teach other players.
For example, Ninjin giving Daiki permission to teach Kienzan to other players, since she has taught him.
Of course this doesn't have to happen immediatly or at all, I just think it'd be cool if a school got popular or the like so a school master isn't stuck with a lot of pestering about threading to teach people.
But back to my main point: I think that the limits of "Special Techniques" such as the Kienzan/Tri-Beam/Multi-Form should be limited strictly to just having the masters teach the characters whom they feel are worthy of the techniques, instead of just limiting it to a Zeni cost.
Any thoughts, anyone?
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Daiki Iranos
Archived
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Post by Daiki Iranos on May 17, 2015 1:15:57 GMT
I'm against this, simply because it would remove the special feature of being a master, both being the only one to teach a technique and the gain from the gi's make them important, but that is just my oppinion
Edit: It woud also simply make people run around all the school and collect all the technique.
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Bing Gan
Administrator
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Post by Bing Gan on May 17, 2015 1:18:37 GMT
I'm gonna have to agree with Toma here, Gi's costing 2.5k Zeni is an OOC barrier that exists for no particular reason. I could see certain scumbag teachers asking for a "Small fee" but that doesn't mean it has to apply for every school!
When I make my school I don't want my students to have to pay for the costs of medium weights and then some just so they can learn from me. I'd still like the Gi's to be in place just so people can have others recognize they are from that school but there really is no reason for a cost to be there.
I could see there being some sort of Trial system or tests you would have to go through before you can officially learn certain things from a master (trial of the mind, trial of the body ETC.), but Zeni shouldn't be involved unless the teacher wants it to be.
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Post by Toma on May 17, 2015 1:20:17 GMT
You're wrong on that last bit Daiki. It wouldn't result in people "collecting" techniques. Removing the Gi system does nothing more than remove the Zeni cost of having to learn a special. It's still up to the masters decision on whether or not to teach you. For example, let's say, Komoto or Hitora wanted to learn from Ninjin.
Just because they want to learn from her, does NOT mean that she would teach them, simply because of the fact that they are evil characters who would bring disgrace to the school. Plenty of reason right there to refuse teaching them.
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Post by President Bao on May 17, 2015 7:12:41 GMT
'Scumbags'? ...uh, wow... ...rude. >.>
Now, Gentlemen; specials are not a joke and should not be treated as such. The attitude I am seeing here indicates that a few of you don't respect/understand the significance they represent, considering them as aesthetic - a shiny thing of little substance. This is wrong, specials are a game changer, they are something that allows you to strike above the level you should, their power is exclusive and much higher than any regular counterpart.
It costs 6000pl for a regular [tier 1] technique, 2500z being paid to the corresponding 'owner'[to help them provide better training *too you* and other students, remembering who they are after all] is not a big ask, and is a way of supplying a roleplay requirement which diverts you from raw pl acquisition. Indeed, you're getting techniques which exceed tier 3 in effectiveness (18,000pl+ worth of techniques, for just 2500 zeni and one tech point), the zeni is to support the given discipline and demonstrate you are genuine about wanting to learn it's ways.
You're also not meant to buy the dogi then go meet the master, you're meant to meet them, seek training, begin learning/running through their trials, and then using the zeni from that thread(s) buy the dogi and finish up learning the techniques and finally the special. You guys seem to think of the 'training' and the 'dogi purchase' as if they are separate when they aren't. When Roshi took on Goku and Krillin he didn't just slap uniforms on them, they had to earn them by running around, moving rocks, finding a stone, doing milk runs and construction work. The money from the milk and construction work then paid for the dogi's, which he presented to them soon afterwards. They then continued their training, further learning what he had to offer and becoming masters of the turtle style.
It is a cost designed to make you actually earn the power it gives and play out your acquisition of it properly with a story. (both you *AND* your master, since past experience has shown that 'masters' often end up being even lazier than potential students and can easily slip into not even bothering to do it properly, defeating the whole purpose of even having them. With the dogi's cost however, it's in the students best interest to contact the master and devise some trials together and an actual storyline for the training, rather than just an OOC agreement and magically the move is theirs). More importantly, it also is intended to address the issue of metagaming and bias - If someone[master] is being difficult then staff can fall back on the fact that once you've bought the dogi you're set to ultimately get the special, the master may not train you using their enhanced gains(since that requires their active involvement), but you can still flavour how you end up acquiring the ability as fitting, and the master gains the zeni still. It's why I've mentioned Palaces as something I want to add when I get a chance, Palaces would be the building people buy when they want a special but they don't want to share. Unlike a master, a lord is under no obligation to teach others and instead exists as a rallying point/saga piece (since often they'd also have a faction at that point).
If you want train with the master for free, then nothing is stopping you (you just can't gain the special or a bonus). If you want to gain the special for free, then that's different and you'll have to sweet talk the master, or someone else, into paying for the dogi for you.
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Mojo
Newcomer
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Post by Mojo on May 17, 2015 11:21:45 GMT
Gis are going nowhere, and nor should they. It's not arbitrary, it's not unfair, and we do actually need a barrier to people just getting specials whenever they want. I was gonna go into detail about all this, but Bao did it for me, so basically 'yeah, that'.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on May 17, 2015 11:22:56 GMT
My opposition to the gi system is that it seems like a very OOC barrier for certain teachers on this site.
I certainly agree that there should be a minimum amount of required interaction between a student and a master to be taught this special; it would require an intimate IC bond rather than a 'u pay me and we'll see wut up' scenario. The cost seems like a very systemic design choice rather than one that makes IC sense for many characters, and I'm personally against introducing 'system' choices that seem to clash with RP sensibility.
I'd rather have something that makes a little more sense, such as a required minimum of interaction threads between the master and other characters, than something that seems a little forced like a payment.
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Post by Kaula on May 17, 2015 12:59:33 GMT
I'd rather have something that makes a little more sense, such as a required minimum of interaction threads between the master and other characters, than something that seems a little forced like a payment. Exactly this. I think we truly need this. I plan on opening a school, and if someone just randomly buys a Gi to learn from me.. Then, well.. Like what do I do? There was no RP about it. What if ICly they hate one another. Kaula ain't going to teach someone she hates. >3> And I'm unsure if teachers can just say "no" once a Gi was bought. I also know they are nonreturnable.
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Mojo
Newcomer
PL: 13,005; Desperation (x2):26,010; Items: Scouter; Zeni: 0
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Post by Mojo on May 17, 2015 13:49:59 GMT
The simple solution is you ICly refuse. Tutors are under no obligation to teach somebody who buys their Gi. You're supposed to buy it AFTER interacting with and securing the tutelage of a master.
If a player buys your school's Gi and then goes 'train me now', you are within your rights to say 'Uh, no. In fact, I despise you.'
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 14:43:57 GMT
The simple solution is you ICly refuse. Tutors are under no obligation to teach somebody who buys their Gi. You're supposed to buy it AFTER interacting with and securing the tutelage of a master. If a player buys your school's Gi and then goes 'train me now', you are within your rights to say 'Uh, no. In fact, I despise you.' What he said
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Post by Toma on May 17, 2015 15:02:13 GMT
I'm agreeing with Zuccetta on this. My main issue is this: Ninjin WANTS to teach Toma her special techniques. She WANTS to pass the Kienzan/Kamehameha/Thunder Flash on to Toma, because she feels he's WORTHY OF THEM. But she CAN'T, simply because of a silly piece of clothing! That makes no sense, IC! Gi's are nothing more than an OOC barrier ment to force you to grind for something even if the master WANTS to teach you, but they can't because you don't own their Gi.
IMO, Gi's should either be removed, or the masters should be allowed to hand out their specials if THEY want to teach someone, rather than that person going to the master.
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Daiki Iranos
Archived
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Post by Daiki Iranos on May 17, 2015 15:09:57 GMT
Toma, deserve your damn Kienzan by buying the damn thing
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Kahr Diak
Rising Soul
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Post by Kahr Diak on May 17, 2015 15:24:55 GMT
I haven't been here long enough to guess how long it takes to get 2500 zeni, but it kinda feels like the complaint isn't about the delay in getting a special technique - or even in having to give up resources to do it - but in the precise method chosen to go about getting it, because the costume feels silly.
My suggestion would be to replace the costume with a third (fourth including the death one?) type of resource - Special Points. These could only be gained by training towards the techniques in the school, or by doing training specifically demanded by the Master (so if Master Roshi tells you to go run milk crates, you can request Special Points on the log rather than zeni/PL).
These can then be turned in for permission to join the school and be able to spend technique slots on the school's techniques. Maybe it could even be staggered, so you can turn in 500 for an entry-level technique, 1000 for the middle, and 1500 for the final technique (and becoming a 'true' student of the school).
This seems like it'd solve the 'there has to be a price to get this stuff' side (because you wouldn't be gaining PL OR Zeni from these scenes) and the 'but I don't want to have to buy an arbitrary outfit - that's silly' side.
Just an idea! ^^
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Post by Kaula on May 17, 2015 15:29:03 GMT
Toma, deserve your damn Kienzan by buying the damn thing Daiki, this is uncalled for and I know I told you to stop antagonizing Toma in the Cbox, as well. This is your only warning on the matter. Please be civil.
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Post by Toma on May 17, 2015 15:36:25 GMT
I haven't been here long enough to guess how long it takes to get 2500 zeni, but it kinda feels like the complaint isn't about the delay in getting a special technique - or even in having to give up resources to do it - but in the precise method chosen to go about getting it, because the costume feels silly. My suggestion would be to replace the costume with a third (fourth including the death one?) type of resource - Special Points. These could only be gained by training towards the techniques in the school, or by doing training specifically demanded by the Master (so if Master Roshi tells you to go run milk crates, you can request Special Points on the log rather than zeni/PL). These can then be turned in for permission to join the school and be able to spend technique slots on the school's techniques. Maybe it could even be staggered, so you can turn in 500 for an entry-level technique, 1000 for the middle, and 1500 for the final technique (and becoming a 'true' student of the school). This seems like it'd solve the 'there has to be a price to get this stuff' side (because you wouldn't be gaining PL OR Zeni from these scenes) and the 'but I don't want to have to buy an arbitrary outfit - that's silly' side. Just an idea! ^^ This, this, a million times this. Though I still think a master should be able to refuse teaching someone, simply because it wouldn't make sense for Ninjin or Rei to teach someone like Hitora/Komoto/Dr. Kouda... you get the idea.
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