Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 10, 2015 5:46:00 GMT
Time for the vote on the Makaioken/Kaioken system! Please do not vote until you're covered on all four systems, their merits, and their drawbacks and weigh them carefully. These systems will carry the chance to really alter core gameplay in a big and fundamental way once its implemented. One way I think about balance is I imagine not only having techniques such as these, but being faced against opponents who carry these techniques while I do not.
The systems up for vote were all discussed in the Kaioken thread, so please refer to it should have any more questions, and are as follows:
Kaioken Transformation (Option 1):
Kaioken Transformations:
Kaioken, at its base has always shown to be a bit of a 'huge boost in strength, but at a heavy price', to the point that at end-game it was, for all intentions and purposes... useless once people could go super saiyan or higher. So while discussing this fact the question was asked 'How can we make Kaioken something 'awesome' but also fair for all the races, especially since regular multiplier additions would pretty much lead to some potential terrible issues on terms of balance. Instead we came onto the idea of an alternative path for Kaioken: Alternative path transformations.
The idea of this approach is that everyone who obtains Kaioken is able to temporarily enter a state that tears away entirely from their race's multipliers, and instead follows an unique path that grants you strong temporary boosts, but at a great cost. Let me show you an example of how this might work, albeit since numbers aren't my strong point, keep in mind the numbers are just rough examples.
Kaioken:
Rather than a proper transformation this is the state a player enters, and at that point is able to start ascending into tiers. In order to tap into those tiers there are certain requirements that need to be met, whether it's training/mastery or a proper PL requirement is yet to be seen. But once in Kaioken the player reverts to their base PL, and instead taps into that awesome little ball of... awesomeness? Anyway! Once in Kaioken players obtain a new feature known as 'Kaioken time', yes a bit lackluster in name, but basically once you enter Kaioken you will be gathering points. How do you gain those points? Let me show you, by letting my moderator self unleash the power of Kaioken....
Reikiko uses Kaioken x50!
By tapping into the Kaioken x50 I have just unleashed the strongest potential level of Kaioken, granting me a temporary x50 transformation. This means that in essence I'll be on par with our strongest end-game race: Humans. Of course alarm bells are ringing and going: But Rei, why would we use our usual modifiers, if we got a badass Kaioken available? Well, as I mentioned before Kaioken is a temporary transformation. Because the result of me using Kaioken leads to my Kaioken Timer slowly depleting.
I have a Kaioken Timer of 100%
With each Kaioken level the timer drops equal to the Kaioken level, divided by 5. So after using Kaioken x50 I have only 90% of my timer left.
Now, the unique thing about Kaioken is that it is a tiered thing, so players are able to alter their modifiers to a certain degree. And even rise on terms of their Kaioken use, but not decrease.
Kaioken x5 (1%)
Kaioken x10 (2%)
Kaioken x15 (3%)
Kaioken x20 (4%)
Kaioken x25 (5%)
Kaioken x30 (6%)
Kaioken x35 (7%)
Kaioken x40 (8%)
Kaioken x45 (9%)
Kaioken x50 (10%)
Ultimate Kaioken (temporarily boosts your multiplier to x75, but will drain all of your Kaioken timer at the end of the post round)
Remember, this has a maintain cost, but now onto the detail involving the negative side of Kaioken.
Your Kaioken Timer also shows the state of your body. Kaioken is damaging on the body, especially the higher you go.
100~90% > No problem
90~80% > -10% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
80~70: > -20% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
70~60: > -30% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
60~50: > -40% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
50~40: > -50% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
40~30: > -60% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
30~20: > -70% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
20~10: > -80% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
10~00: > -90% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode (and temporary transformations are dispelled) + One round until KO, unless you eat a senzu bean (this also removes the other tiers of PL reduction)
Note: Once you Kaioken timer runs out... it doesn't refill, not even with a senzu bean.
Now, how do you train Kaioken? On terms of that I have to admit I'm uncertain. It will likely still retain PL requirements, but perhaps more relaxed than proper transformations. For those curious why one would use Kaioken instead of a proper transformation:
Right now only humans have a modifier of x50, this means that at its highest tier you'd be able to fight equal to them. Ultimate Kaioken in fact is considered the 'ace' of the ultimate (yeah, I know there's not an Ultimate Kaioken, but it sounds cooler than Kaioken x75, and there's no x100 Kaioken for you all in here =P). For a single round you'd even have a 25% potential advantage over an equal level-ed human and a 35% over the lowest modifier races. This is pretty much that 'burst' moment, like the one you see when Goku used Kaioken x4 alongside his Kamehameha to topple Vegeta).
-Note: Kaioken can't be used alongside Bulking techniques and the like-
I'm sure more information and questions will be raised, but this is pretty much something that came as a result of sleep-derived people thinking of exciting ultimates for everyone.
Kaioken Stack (Option 2):
As seen in the series, this 'technique' allows for a temporary boost in speed and strength, but over-use and pushing yourself too far with the technique results in exhaustion, internal damage and possibly death.
Mechanically, I believe the Kaioken should operate on a similar basis to Android 'Overdrive' - an addition to transformation multiplier. This enables it to remain valid throughout the game. There are no canon examples of Kaioken stacking with transformations, however, Goku was momentarily able to use Kaioken simultaneously with Super Saiya-jin during the anime-only 'Otherworld Tournament' saga. You may not agree with this sentiment, but allow me to explain why I believe Kaioken should be as such.
If Kaioken is treated as an independent transformation, it'll (usually) already be outclassed by other transformations by the time someone dies. And, given the current meta-game, with many people closing in on the Tier 1/SSj Tier of power, I believe the Kaioken as stated below is the best option for the technique to remain relevant throughout.
There would be tiers of Kaioken: In my head, I have a +x1, +x3 and +x5. This could be changed to 1,2,3. Each 'tier' of Kaioken would be able to be used for longer, and you'd only be able to pick one per fight. For instance, the +x1 iteration of the Kaioken could be used for 15 posts of a fight, the +x3 for 10, the +x5 for 5 or less. This would make Super Saiyan a 13x, 15x, or 17x temporarily. However, when the Kaioken 'runs down', the user is exhausted; I'm not sure how this works mechanically, but they would have to RP tiredness/injury and be incapable of resuming the Kaioken transformation (alternatively, they could do a theoretical 'last stand' and assume the Kaioken again, but once it is finished the body shuts down and you've died, no matter what 'tier' of Kaioken you choose).
Kaioken Burst Damage System (Option 3):
It would work as a modifier to your Offensive Techniques and Support Techniques only.
Kaioken x2: Adds an instant +20% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 7.5%.
Kaioken x3: Adds an instant +30% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 11.25%
Kaioken x4: Adds an instant +40% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 15%.
Kaioken x5: Adds an instant +50% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 18.75%.
Kaioken x10: Adds an instant 100% charge to your attack, lowers your thread PL by afterward 37.5%.
Kaioken x15: Adds an instant 150% charge to your attack, lowers your thread PL by afterward 56.25%.
Kaioken x20: Adds an instant 200% charge to your attack, lowers your thread PL afterward by 75%.
Due to its draining and damaging nature, a user can only activate Kaioken can only be used up to three times in one thread. Note that these percentages and modifiers are both taken from your starting Thread PL, so using Kaioken x15 or x20 twice in one thread would kill you. This would make Kaioken a high risk, high reward system.
Makaioken would work similarly, but because the Makaioshin are lesser beings to the Kaioshin, the Makaioken is more dangerous to use, cuts deeper, and is harder to control. As a darker version of the Kaioken, it drains the spirit force of the user while burning, you have to feed it more to sate its growing hunger, and can only ascend through its tiers during a fight if you wish to use it three times, and never descend.
Makaioken x2: Adds an instant +22% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 9.5%.
Makaioken x3: Adds an instant +33% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 14.25%
Makaioken x4: Adds an instant +44% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 19%
Makaioken x5: Adds an instant +55% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 23.75%.
Makaioken x10: Adds an instant +110% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 47.5%.
Makaioken x15: Adds an instant +165% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 71.25%.
Makaioken x20: Adds an instant +220% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 95%.
This burst damage system would make Kaioken/Makaioken powerful at all points of the game, but also very risky, and reflect the extremely limited time use of the techniques.
Alternate Kaioken Stack (Option 4):
EDIT: the quick suggestion was that no matter what form of Kaioken is used a harsh penalty would come to the user, earlier stages delay this penalty whereas later stages get the penalty immediately but the large increase in battle could easily mean a win and change the tides of a saga or even a DE. A high-risk high reward sort of deal.
Let the democracy begin!
The systems up for vote were all discussed in the Kaioken thread, so please refer to it should have any more questions, and are as follows:
Kaioken Transformation (Option 1):
Kaioken Transformations:
Kaioken, at its base has always shown to be a bit of a 'huge boost in strength, but at a heavy price', to the point that at end-game it was, for all intentions and purposes... useless once people could go super saiyan or higher. So while discussing this fact the question was asked 'How can we make Kaioken something 'awesome' but also fair for all the races, especially since regular multiplier additions would pretty much lead to some potential terrible issues on terms of balance. Instead we came onto the idea of an alternative path for Kaioken: Alternative path transformations.
The idea of this approach is that everyone who obtains Kaioken is able to temporarily enter a state that tears away entirely from their race's multipliers, and instead follows an unique path that grants you strong temporary boosts, but at a great cost. Let me show you an example of how this might work, albeit since numbers aren't my strong point, keep in mind the numbers are just rough examples.
Kaioken:
Rather than a proper transformation this is the state a player enters, and at that point is able to start ascending into tiers. In order to tap into those tiers there are certain requirements that need to be met, whether it's training/mastery or a proper PL requirement is yet to be seen. But once in Kaioken the player reverts to their base PL, and instead taps into that awesome little ball of... awesomeness? Anyway! Once in Kaioken players obtain a new feature known as 'Kaioken time', yes a bit lackluster in name, but basically once you enter Kaioken you will be gathering points. How do you gain those points? Let me show you, by letting my moderator self unleash the power of Kaioken....
Reikiko uses Kaioken x50!
By tapping into the Kaioken x50 I have just unleashed the strongest potential level of Kaioken, granting me a temporary x50 transformation. This means that in essence I'll be on par with our strongest end-game race: Humans. Of course alarm bells are ringing and going: But Rei, why would we use our usual modifiers, if we got a badass Kaioken available? Well, as I mentioned before Kaioken is a temporary transformation. Because the result of me using Kaioken leads to my Kaioken Timer slowly depleting.
I have a Kaioken Timer of 100%
With each Kaioken level the timer drops equal to the Kaioken level, divided by 5. So after using Kaioken x50 I have only 90% of my timer left.
Now, the unique thing about Kaioken is that it is a tiered thing, so players are able to alter their modifiers to a certain degree. And even rise on terms of their Kaioken use, but not decrease.
Kaioken x5 (1%)
Kaioken x10 (2%)
Kaioken x15 (3%)
Kaioken x20 (4%)
Kaioken x25 (5%)
Kaioken x30 (6%)
Kaioken x35 (7%)
Kaioken x40 (8%)
Kaioken x45 (9%)
Kaioken x50 (10%)
Ultimate Kaioken (temporarily boosts your multiplier to x75, but will drain all of your Kaioken timer at the end of the post round)
Remember, this has a maintain cost, but now onto the detail involving the negative side of Kaioken.
Your Kaioken Timer also shows the state of your body. Kaioken is damaging on the body, especially the higher you go.
100~90% > No problem
90~80% > -10% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
80~70: > -20% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
70~60: > -30% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
60~50: > -40% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
50~40: > -50% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
40~30: > -60% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
30~20: > -70% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
20~10: > -80% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode
10~00: > -90% Max PL upon leaving Kaioken mode (and temporary transformations are dispelled) + One round until KO, unless you eat a senzu bean (this also removes the other tiers of PL reduction)
Note: Once you Kaioken timer runs out... it doesn't refill, not even with a senzu bean.
Now, how do you train Kaioken? On terms of that I have to admit I'm uncertain. It will likely still retain PL requirements, but perhaps more relaxed than proper transformations. For those curious why one would use Kaioken instead of a proper transformation:
Right now only humans have a modifier of x50, this means that at its highest tier you'd be able to fight equal to them. Ultimate Kaioken in fact is considered the 'ace' of the ultimate (yeah, I know there's not an Ultimate Kaioken, but it sounds cooler than Kaioken x75, and there's no x100 Kaioken for you all in here =P). For a single round you'd even have a 25% potential advantage over an equal level-ed human and a 35% over the lowest modifier races. This is pretty much that 'burst' moment, like the one you see when Goku used Kaioken x4 alongside his Kamehameha to topple Vegeta).
-Note: Kaioken can't be used alongside Bulking techniques and the like-
I'm sure more information and questions will be raised, but this is pretty much something that came as a result of sleep-derived people thinking of exciting ultimates for everyone.
Kaioken Stack (Option 2):
A.i) The Kaioken:
As seen in the series, this 'technique' allows for a temporary boost in speed and strength, but over-use and pushing yourself too far with the technique results in exhaustion, internal damage and possibly death.
Mechanically, I believe the Kaioken should operate on a similar basis to Android 'Overdrive' - an addition to transformation multiplier. This enables it to remain valid throughout the game. There are no canon examples of Kaioken stacking with transformations, however, Goku was momentarily able to use Kaioken simultaneously with Super Saiya-jin during the anime-only 'Otherworld Tournament' saga. You may not agree with this sentiment, but allow me to explain why I believe Kaioken should be as such.
If Kaioken is treated as an independent transformation, it'll (usually) already be outclassed by other transformations by the time someone dies. And, given the current meta-game, with many people closing in on the Tier 1/SSj Tier of power, I believe the Kaioken as stated below is the best option for the technique to remain relevant throughout.
There would be tiers of Kaioken: In my head, I have a +x1, +x3 and +x5. This could be changed to 1,2,3. Each 'tier' of Kaioken would be able to be used for longer, and you'd only be able to pick one per fight. For instance, the +x1 iteration of the Kaioken could be used for 15 posts of a fight, the +x3 for 10, the +x5 for 5 or less. This would make Super Saiyan a 13x, 15x, or 17x temporarily. However, when the Kaioken 'runs down', the user is exhausted; I'm not sure how this works mechanically, but they would have to RP tiredness/injury and be incapable of resuming the Kaioken transformation (alternatively, they could do a theoretical 'last stand' and assume the Kaioken again, but once it is finished the body shuts down and you've died, no matter what 'tier' of Kaioken you choose).
Kaioken Burst Damage System (Option 3):
I've come up with a Kaioken/Makaioken Burst Damage System, that will work in lieu of a transformation or a stack, and will also give it a lifespan that lasts through the entire meta game.
It would work as a modifier to your Offensive Techniques and Support Techniques only.
Kaioken x2: Adds an instant +20% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 7.5%.
Kaioken x3: Adds an instant +30% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 11.25%
Kaioken x4: Adds an instant +40% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 15%.
Kaioken x5: Adds an instant +50% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 18.75%.
Kaioken x10: Adds an instant 100% charge to your attack, lowers your thread PL by afterward 37.5%.
Kaioken x15: Adds an instant 150% charge to your attack, lowers your thread PL by afterward 56.25%.
Kaioken x20: Adds an instant 200% charge to your attack, lowers your thread PL afterward by 75%.
Due to its draining and damaging nature, a user can only activate Kaioken can only be used up to three times in one thread. Note that these percentages and modifiers are both taken from your starting Thread PL, so using Kaioken x15 or x20 twice in one thread would kill you. This would make Kaioken a high risk, high reward system.
Makaioken would work similarly, but because the Makaioshin are lesser beings to the Kaioshin, the Makaioken is more dangerous to use, cuts deeper, and is harder to control. As a darker version of the Kaioken, it drains the spirit force of the user while burning, you have to feed it more to sate its growing hunger, and can only ascend through its tiers during a fight if you wish to use it three times, and never descend.
Makaioken x2: Adds an instant +22% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 9.5%.
Makaioken x3: Adds an instant +33% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 14.25%
Makaioken x4: Adds an instant +44% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 19%
Makaioken x5: Adds an instant +55% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 23.75%.
Makaioken x10: Adds an instant +110% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 47.5%.
Makaioken x15: Adds an instant +165% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 71.25%.
Makaioken x20: Adds an instant +220% charge to your attack. Lowers your thread PL afterward by 95%.
This burst damage system would make Kaioken/Makaioken powerful at all points of the game, but also very risky, and reflect the extremely limited time use of the techniques.
Alternate Kaioken Stack (Option 4):
Apr 8, 2015 16:01:56 GMT @azurai said:
Well how I really see it is that earlier stages like x2 would last a large amount of time as if it was a transformation, like 10 posts, whereas later stages like x20 would just be one. That way Kaioken caters to different situations and to different people and has high-risk high reward with the way the technique is calculated (x3 trans + x1 on kaioken = a x4 trans for 10 moves, x3 trans + x20 kaioken = a 23x trans/burst for one move) I'm not sure if that's how the Burst system would come out but it's really more of a hybrid between a transformation and burst. EDIT: the quick suggestion was that no matter what form of Kaioken is used a harsh penalty would come to the user, earlier stages delay this penalty whereas later stages get the penalty immediately but the large increase in battle could easily mean a win and change the tides of a saga or even a DE. A high-risk high reward sort of deal.
Let the democracy begin!