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Post by President Bao on Apr 3, 2015 14:00:02 GMT
So currently we have an issue with the majins profile. Some of the mods brought it up before, so my goal here is to clarify all the things that seemed to be confused over. First up - Majins are the spawn of Majin buu. As per DBO's version of the continuity, buu eventually grew lonely, and after reading one of mr Satans adult books, spawned a wife from his feelings of love and loneliness (similar to evil buu being spawned by hate and rage, though this one was obviously good  ). They began a family, and eventually the majin race grew to be a regular domesticated fixture of Earth, less in population but no more out of the ordinary than the various animal-people who reside all around the place. Buu's power became dispursed in this way, thus majins are not ssj3 powered monsters, but more around ki-powered martial artists or low class saiyans in strength naturally. They are generally kind hearted and innocent in nature, though like any sentient being each are unique in personality and alignment (some may be good, others may be bad). Now, onto the mechanical aspect - First up, at the bottom here is majins: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L5PTKWEN2Xn9G1xDJJdlluYlk0rnilGd-FbkPwv-qfY/edit#gid=0Majins are the ultimate tanks, with a very steady trans progression(their trans are more just natural growth, not your typical 'changes', and no you don't require absorptions and such for each individal multiplier change) and number of useful abilities, they are a race that is very hard to put down in battle, often because their offensive power is misleadingly lower than their defensive capability. Their abilities are as follows: + Durability - Allows you to increase your defensive multiplier by x1 for a single use. Lets you tank an imcoming attack to survive where you otherwise might not (eg. frieza against spirit bomb) + Regeneration - Lets you regenerate damage, like namekians regrow lost arms. Your strength dictates the effectiveness of this ability. eg. early piccolo had trouble even regening a single arm, but by buu saga could come back from just a head. (buu's raw strength was the main reason his regen was so effective) - Soft Body - their soft bodies mean that although they can take a punch like a champ, they hit like a feather themselves. This removes x3 from their multiplier when it comes to offence, meaning although a majin may feel like they only have 1000pl, their true pl value would be 3000. This was how buu was so hard to kill, his actual strength was much higher than his offensive strength lead people to believe. + Magic Skill; Beam - A one use(per thread) skill which hits for 3x your offensive pl, this counteracts soft body allowing the majin to strike at their 'full power'. Based off buu's Candy beam, though other variants could be possible. Majins who take this cannot absorb, much like how fat buu lacked the ability. OR+ Magic Skill; Absorption - Alternatively, a majin can take absorption instead. After attaining victory in a saga battle you may chose to absorb your enemy, gaining 10% of their base pl and adding +1 to your multipliers. The opponent is killed by this(since for gameplay reasons we can't expect them to sit around trapped inside you forever). If I recall correctly, the cap is 5. -------------------------- They have very regular transformations, even more so than androids, meaning unlike other races who spike up suddenly, then coast along for a bit, then spike again, majins just slowly plod upwards. At some points this means they are a little stronger(essecially against the races which have fewer transformations, like humans), at others it means they have been overtaken. In terms of how their absorption stacks up to bio-android absorption;Bio-android absorption during imperfection gives a x8 modifier(can also be increased through tech slots), and for their two key transformations gives 33% of targets pl. (total value 66%, + x8) Majins get x1 modifier (not restricted to just early), and get 10% and not just twice but up to 5 times. (total value 50%, + x5) Essentially, we are again seeing the 'sudden spikes' vs majins 'slow and steady' approach. Majins two key transformations require an absorb, a separation or an unlock (as noted on the spreadsheet). This is same as namekians, meaning yes majins who chose not to take absorb can still ascend through these tiers. I believe that covers everything, feel free to add comments or questions. |
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 3, 2015 16:11:48 GMT
My main concern is like you said, their very regular transformations. They have a total of 9 tiering up points, compared to the next two highest's 6 (who both pay for it by having generally low xforms) and the most others 5. Majins vs. Saiyans:This looks, at its base level, like Majin might be decently balanced, always competitive but never domineering. But we haven't yet looked at what it looks like when they get their absorbs. Their species sheet says up to 6, not 5, but if they were only intended to go up to 5 and it could be changed to that on their species sheet, I will show that also: Max Absorbed (+6) Majins vs. Saiyans:1 Absorb Per 80k (+6) Majins vs. Saiyans:Max Absorbed (+5) Majins vs. Saiyans:1 Absorb Per 100k (+5) Majins vs. Saiyans:The Majin never has a period of non-competitiveness, due to their rapid tiering. In fact, if they are able to reach their max absorb early -- which is entirely plausible -- a +6 or +5 Majin could pretty much match or out-tier everyone throughout the game. I think that their number of tiers need to be brought down a few. Also, if they're supposed to be the ultimate tank with some of those really nice Unique Characteristics, they have one of the better endgame offenses at 42 or 43 (matching or exceeding all but Hybrid, SSJ, Alien A, and Human) when they take the absorb, which I'm guessing most players will. |
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Koramund
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Post by Koramund on Apr 3, 2015 18:37:48 GMT
How about this... if we want to balance absorption AND their offensive PL, how about they only gain +1 offensive PL at their 2nd, 4th and 6th absorption? That way they only have a 40/46 at the end, and their offensive PL is slightly above the least? Or we could have it where they gain only 2, +1 at 3rd absorption, and 1 at 6th absorption. This will keep their hyper-defenses, but make their offensive power lower to compensate a little more.
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Post by Reikiko on Apr 3, 2015 18:50:51 GMT
Question: + Magic Skill; Beam - A one use(per thread) skill which hits for 3x your offensive pl, this counteracts soft body allowing the majin to strike at their 'full power'. Based off buu's Candy beam, though other variants could be possible. Majins who take this cannot absorb, much like how fat buu lacked the ability.
Is this basically... a 300% PL attack?
I'm kind of glad it's a one use per thread thing, since a 300% PL attack hits harder than a 2 charges Kikoho/Kienzan.
Also an important note:
In terms of how their absorption stacks up to bio-android absorption;
Bio-android absorption during imperfection gives a x8 modifier(can also be increased through tech slots), and for their two key transformations gives 33% of targets pl. (total value 66%, + x8)
Majins get x1 modifier (not restricted to just early), and get 10% and not just twice but up to 5 times. (total value 50%, + x5)
Bio-androids their x8 modifier lasts only until they get semi-perfect, Majin get their modifier boost permanently on top of their transformations.
But by now I kind of lost track of how their multipliers work... all this math is giving me a headache >_<
40/46 still sounds a bit... personally I would have said 39/46, or 40/45, making the latter have them be defensively on par with SSJ3 mastered, but that's all I can think of right now.
Also question for Bao:
You mentioned that Durability for some races is stuck at a 1 use a thread thing, right? For what races is this a 1 use, and for what is this a 'permanent' defensive multiplier? This is kind of important since it was never stayed to be a one use thing in their profiles, and... some of us (like me) might had taken Arcosian's durability because we assumed it meant they were more durable defensively, rather than a 'one use boost'.
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Post by President Bao on Apr 4, 2015 7:48:09 GMT
Sorry about the wait, to address some of the questions here - Technically, due to soft body, it is a '100% attack', it just happens to be 3 times stronger than how they usually hit. and yes, bio's get the 33% rather than the multiplier post-imperfection (well, technically they still have bio-meta, it's just weaker than their next trans) that is why it's benefits are reduced. And durability was always an activated ability you use when receiving an attack, if it was just an extra x1 all the time it would be pretty overpowered XD (especially given it's arcosians). It's intended as a life saver to keep you in a fight you might otherwise have been elimiated from, ala frieza surviving the spirit bomb. Problem is seems the species apps don't have it listed that way, tis why I've been trying to get people to help me update and correct them :X. As for the graphs; Looking at them we can see that offensively majins are at the bottom on the progression path, and defensively sit solidly within the middle. With a few absorptions in the mix, they fair a bit higher, but if they successfully absorb then that is a benefit they have worked to attain, much like a bio-android. (and having a 45 def/40 offensive mutiplier at 450,000 leaves them fairly even with other races such as the 43 at 400,000 bioandroids or the 45 at 450,000 hybrids. Again remember, they had to successfully absorb five people to do this, assuming they took it as an option - not a simple task) Vi, I don't suppose you have the option to connect the dots without interpolation? uh, by which I mean instead of the line going diagonally between two points, it should only go horizontally and then vertically( like this). It may make it easier to see and is more in line with the instantaneous acquisition transformations work on. |
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 4, 2015 15:24:59 GMT
I will certainly do that. They won't have a 45def/40 offensive multiplier at 450,000 with 5 absorbs though, they would have a 45/42, which makes them offensively one of the better species. With 6 -- which is what the sheet currently says -- they would be at 46/43, and both a +6 and a +5 Majin have the issue of out-tiering everyone at all points throughout the game if they can get their absorbs in early, due to their rapid tiering. The difference between bios are, their stack goes away after their first big tier. With Majin the absorption mechanic is different, they can accumulate a permanent stack on top of their permanent tiers, which no other race enjoys.
Koramund's idea of having it level at 40 offense/46 def makes a lot of sense to me, and I think you might agree since that was near the 45 def/40 offense modifier mix you stated. Offensively, they will match an SSJ3. Defensively, they will exceed even a USSJ3.
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Post by President Bao on Apr 5, 2015 16:52:56 GMT
Correct, my mistake, I mean 42. And I've been using 5 cause I have no idea where the stated 6 came from, and feel five is about the highest I personally would vote in favour of. It's quite late, so I'm going to head off, but to continue playing devils advocate and give the opposing side a voice; To emphasise here, we are indeed talking about five separate absorptions, absorption is not easy, it's risky and requires you work hard to ensure you are strong enough to defeat your opponent (assuming no cheating has occurred), or face death if the gamble goes poorly. So this favourable standing is an earned, saga-driving reward, not just an easily obtained or automatic outcome. (Our other absorber by comparison only need two for their final multiplier 43 pl(both offense and defense), three if they were ambitious and snagged someone during their imperfect stage.) Oh, and out of curiosity, what software/whatever are you using for those graphs? Just wondering as depending on data format I may have a task for you  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 2:21:04 GMT
Honestly speaking I think the one use +[x1] is nothing. If you're detransformed, that may translate to twice as much defensive potential sure, which can be useful. But when using transformations, that goes down to x1.33 for the first tier (x3 -> x4) and x1.025 for the later tier (x40 -> x41), which is literally a one use +2.5% pl increase for defense. Perhaps if it was a cumulative +[x1] to each tier (tier 0 counting; tier 0 = non-transformed) it would get slightly more useful, although as transformations are unlocked it will still get progessively more useless.
If it's meant to be a one-use thing, you should perhaps make it a x3 defense, like a counterpart to majins' and demons' powered one use offensive technique.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 6, 2015 17:39:00 GMT
I'm actually using a National Center for Education Statistics for Kids online tool: nces.ed.gov/nceskids/createagraph/It's a lot faster than building and organizing cells in Excel. Being for kids, it's not sophisticated enough to do a step chart like you want, interpolation is always on, but I can do that in Excel or R. I think Koramund brought up a very good solution of having the absorbs toggle between a +1/+1 and a +0/+1 bonus. This would allow Majin defense to expand to 45 or 46 (if we keep the 6 which is on the sheet now) over time, while keeping Majin offense competitive with SSJ3. My main problem though is still with the tiering combined with the absorption. Someone nearly got absorbed in a lowbie DE the other day -- it can happen much more frequently than 1 time every 100k -- and if, with the current constant tiering, if a strong Majin were to cleverly absorb 5 low PL people early, maxing at early midgame for instance, there would at no point be a challenger to even their offensive modifiers. A +5 or +6 maxed Majin would even in their softened offense always roughly equal or exceed all tiers of all other species until endgame. Effective ties will be within a 1x range. +6 & +5 Majin vs. Top Tier-ers:1st Transform70,000 PL: +6 Majin = x10/x13 , + 5 Majin = x9/x12 vs Arcosian = x10 , +6M ties offense and wins defense, and +5M barely loses offense and wins defense. 2nd Transform100,000 PL: +6 Majin = x12/x15 , + 5 Majin = x11/x14 vs Super Saiyan = x12 , +6M ties offense and wins defense. +5M barely loses offense and wins defense. 3rd Transform150,000 PL: +6 Majin = x16/x19 , +5 Majin = x12/x18 vs Demons & Namekians = x18, Overdroids x19 , First of only two times both maxed Majins are at a slight disadvantage with the top tierers offensively. Matches or exceeds defensively with a +6, barely loses defense with a +5. 4th Transform200,000 PL: +6 Majin = x21/x24, +5 Majin = x20/x23 vs same crowd as above. Here is where the problem of the Majin's step-wise nature starts to grow. Now the +6 and +5 Majins dominate in both offense and defense. It's no leap of faith to assume that someone can wrack in 5 or 6 kills by 200k. 5th Transform
250,000 PL: +6 Majin = x26/x29 , +5 Majin = x25/x28 vs Hybrids/SSJ2 = x25 . The +6M wins in both offense and defense again, and the +5M ties in offense and wins in defense. 6th Transform
300,00 PL: +6 Majin = x31/x34, +5 Majin = x30/x33 vs x32 Namekians , x34 Overdroid. Here the Majin experience their second offensive dip, but still remain competitive with the best offensively and exceeding/equal defensively to the top tiers. 7th Transform
350,000 PL: +6 Majin = x36/x39 , +5 Majin = x35/x38 vs x35 Bio-Android. Here the +6M wins on both counts, and the +5M ties offensively and wins defensively. 8th Transform400,000 PL: +6 Majin = x41/x44, +5 Majin = x40/x43 vs x43 Bio-Android. Here the Majin starts to experience its endgame balance, where the effects of its multiple absorption seem expected and are therefor softened. It still competes very well against the Bio-Android, though it just loses out or ties defensively (but still beats the other species). 9th Transform450,000: +6 Majin = x43/x46, +5 Majin = x42/x45 vs Hybrids @ x45. The Majin endgame. It still carries in a +6 or a +5 one of the better offenses in the end game, only bested by Saiyans, Hybrids, Alien A, and Humans. Note that this entire tier analysis above were how the max-absorbed Majin stacked up against the very best species in the base PL snapshot. This does not show how the Majin stacks up against the average race in that instance, which is far stronger than against the "instance champion" species. Also note that throughout the entire base PL domain, at no point until the endgame is the +6 or +5 Majin meaningfully exceeded in offense or defense due to their rapid tiering. For a species that is supposed to be the ultimate tank, it dominates in offensive modifiers as well once its absorbs are maxed. This in my view is not only due to the +1/+1 absorption mechanic, but also due to the constant tiering. Koramund's solution is a great one, it will lessen the impact of the clockwork transformations on balance, and keep Majin tanky throughout. Though I still think there needs to be a couple of tiers taken out of Majin, so that a Majin would experience times near the bottom. Even a Majin with a few absorbs by midgame will be experiencing offensive and defensive multipliers that are far better than most of the other species, because those species do not adjust near so frequently. |
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Post by Zexama on Jun 11, 2015 9:20:32 GMT
I have an small little idea to try and fix this problem, for our starting trans, 0x/3x we can absorb one person, then, when we get our 4x/7x trans, we unlock another available absorbtion. For example, if I had my 16x/19x trans, I would be allowed to get three absorbs.
Yay or nay?
I realise I am also very late to post.
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). They began a family, and eventually the majin race grew to be a regular domesticated fixture of Earth, less in population but no more out of the ordinary than the various animal-people who reside all around the place. Buu's power became dispursed in this way, thus majins are not ssj3 powered monsters, but more around ki-powered martial artists or low class saiyans in strength naturally. They are generally kind hearted and innocent in nature, though like any sentient being each are unique in personality and alignment (some may be good, others may be bad).
