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Post by Reikiko on Mar 23, 2015 11:47:34 GMT
wodsouls.freeforums.net/threads/recent/2335Hey everyone~ Your residential nomming bio-android here. This topic is kind of here to discuss and think of alternatives for a more 'casual' approach to deal with technique spamming. Right now the exhaustion system was added for the simple fact that well... everyone and their Puarr tends to use their techs without consequences... what kind of leads to a rather problematic situation. However, to some exhaustion might sound overly complicated, but unfortunately getting people to limit their technique use is kind of... a necessary evil. I know most of you will enter this topic with the idea 'But Rei, why not depend on fair play?', but sadly I'll have to say to that: When you enter a DE, you usually enter with an intention, the intention to win, the intention to accomplish something. Very, VERY rarely will players actually be willing to give-and-take when it comes to such extremes as they are topics where people can die. At that point you get two possible scenarios: Some people will get fed up with the overuse of techniques, and consider leaving the site, others will avoid DE's and sagas all together. An alternative could be something to promote 'classic' brawling/fisti-cuffs fights. For example: Adrenaline boost: For each round you don't charge or use a technique you gain a boost to your PL that lasts while you are brawling/hitting each other till the stars are knocked out of them. This is basically a 'bribery' of sorts to convince people to actually rely more on other things instead of techniques. Consider it a 'reward' compared to exhaustion's 'punishment'. To show an example: Player A fights player B: Player A brawls it out with Player B > both get a +5% Boost in PL Player A tries to continue brawl, but oh wait! Player B after-images and knocks Player A into a building= > Player B hits at +5% PL, but loses his buff... while Player A is at a wooping 10% PL boost! Player A emerges from within the debris and fires a Kamehameha at the enemy, and hits at +10% of their PL, but now loses their buff also
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 23, 2015 11:53:47 GMT
I have an idea.
All characters have a 'pool' of energy stored up. Say, six charges (each worth a single post's worth of technique-charging). You CAN exhaust these all in rapid succession, but to replenish the energy pool, you must spend a post without using any techniques, to allow your energy to recharge. Each turn spent using just standard attacks is a single charge of energy restored. If your character manages to escape from battle and properly rest, they can restore two per post, but obviously their opponent is unlikely to simply let them escape.
Prevents tech spam, pretty straightforward IMO, doesn't over-complicate things too much.
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Kaval
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Post by Kaval on Mar 23, 2015 19:34:28 GMT
I really like the idea of rewarding players for wanting to fight it out without the use of special techniques. Techs are great, of course, and are central to DB. But so are those brawling moments where both fighters are locked in a high-speed brawl, waiting for a chance to fire off a special attack. The "adrenaline boost" does a great job at promoting that kind of fight. I would suggest that there's a cap to the bonus, however. Maybe somewhere between 25% and 50%, just so characters don't suddenly get a monumental boost in power just by punching around for twenty posts straight.
Also, perhaps the bonus doesn't go up (or even goes down by a certain amount) if you choose to dodge an attack. This could dissuade players from dodge-spamming.
Let's say, for example, a player loses 10% of their adrenaline bonus if they choose to dodge: Players A brawls with player B, they both get +5% bonus. Player B continues the brawl, bringing them to +10%. Player A cashes in their bonus, firing a close-range Kamehemeha at +10% power, losing the bonus. Player B doesn't want to get hit by that and chooses to dodge, which brings their adrenaline bonus back to +0%. The fight goes on.
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Hyoza, I like that idea a lot. I still think long-term exhaustion needs to be addressed, but your suggestion is great for preventing tech spam.
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 23, 2015 19:46:02 GMT
With regards to exhaustion - a good roleplayer will of course talk about growing combat fatique as a fight goes on, but why does it need to be a mechanic? It's an additional layer of complexity to a system that has only been successful due to its simplicity, and tbh it doesn't really add much to the experience. Tbh so long as we have enough rules to enforce fair play, I think that's enough.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 20:29:26 GMT
Wait, so you're saying in a fight Hyoza everyone would be able to use at most potentially six attacks at once that are on their technique list? Otherwise, they would need to rest afterwards? But each N1 technique that is used takes up one of these slots?
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Kaval
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Post by Kaval on Mar 23, 2015 20:44:41 GMT
Hyoza, you have a good point. I just think it would help to have a bit of structure in place in regards to how much your character can fight. A good roleplayer will indeed mention the combat fatigue, but not everyone is as skilled at roleplaying. I think a simple exhaustion guideline will help to avoid any instances of one player going to another and saying "hey, shouldn't your character be getting tired now?", or other similar cases. There's no frustration, as everyone has a clear understanding of when their character becomes less powerful.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 20:55:02 GMT
Clarity, Kaval? Just look at what Reikiko's considering...
What Reikiko has put up seems pretty confusing to me fight wise because that means we have to calculate PL per turn to very specific values. It's kind of also pushing the normal 33%, 66%, 100% rules by boosting techniques powers up 5%, 10% etc. just by brawling one can accumulate energy to a certain extent where I always thought brawling was meant to tire a person out not raise their power briefly. That's what transformations are for or charging.
Unless a technique is specifically a UV2, UV3 or a Special Technique taught by a master there shouldn't be this style of system in place to represent fatigue because it's not really representing it.
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 23, 2015 20:57:02 GMT
My initial proposal was that each charge = one post of charging an attack - so you could potentially use up to two fully-charged attacks, three two-turn-charged attacks, or any mix thereof that totals up to six posts or less. It has since been suggested that we might change the number of charges used depending on the level of the technique, rather than the number of posts spent charging.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 21:00:25 GMT
Okay, Hyoza, thought it might be something like that. I just wanted to make sure.
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Kaval
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Post by Kaval on Mar 23, 2015 21:52:17 GMT
Having something require a bit more work doesn't make it less clear. Plus, Reikiko's idea is for discouraging tech spam by rewarding non-tech fighting, not exhaustion. My comment regarding clarity was in reference to character exhaustion, specifically.
But, that's not really the topic of this thread. I really shouldn't have brought it up, anyway. We need to find alternatives.
I don't think it's very confusing to simply add the percentage to your next tech. Count how many consecutive posts you've been brawling, then add 5% per post to your next tech move. But I DO agree that having your character power up by 5% every single turn would be tedious. Maybe don't include the adrenaline bonus for non-tech moves?
It needs work, but I agree that there needs to be a reason for players not to use techs all the time, and not just leaving it up to the individual to judge. Player judgement can be biased, or otherwise incorrect.
EDIT: All that being said, Hyoza's suggestion could work just as well. I just like Reikiko's idea, too.
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Post by Reikiko on Mar 24, 2015 13:17:08 GMT
Okay, to explain the 'bonus' a bit further.
1: Dodging a tech generally requires a after-image/tech use, what means you're bonus is going to go down either way if you dodge. 2: It's honestly not that confusing if you take a look at it again. 3: Regular brawling serves no other purpose than flavor fighting and stacking up on a boost for your techs, unless we include the 'blitz mode' idea of charging up regular brawling to actual cause N1 damage for a round that was mentioned in Pieter's topic.
The adrenaline bonus pretty much serves 2 purposes. 1: Counter tech spams by increasing your defense to it by regular brawling 2: Boost your own tech to serve as an ultimate.
the Math behind it is in essence super simple: Count every none-tech post you made between your last tech, and your 'planned' tech and add +5% for each post (I do agree there should be a limit, maybe like 25%~50%) It literally adds only a single additional multiply compared to the current math. It goes from PLx??% (tech value) to PL x Adrenaline boost x ??% (tech value)
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 25, 2015 2:29:46 GMT
I think dodging a tech needs to take off just as much energy as using one, or near as much.
Cause otherwise the dodge-happy people will be at a huge advantage. There needs to be some cost associate with dodging if we're going to regulate it. Personally, I'd like to see us come to a loose "don't tech too much" like we do with dodge, but then, sometimes I feel like people use dodge too often.
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Bing Gan
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Post by Bing Gan on Mar 25, 2015 2:34:22 GMT
I agree Vip, I'd like to see people block or maybe try to deflect more, Dodging is too fancy to use all the time.
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Post by President Bao on Mar 25, 2015 3:51:02 GMT
What's happening here XD Can somone give me a summary, with how busy things are I appear to have fallen behind on a fairly major discussion topic, and I don't want to try and squeeze in a quick comment now incase I'm misunderstanding the situation.
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Post by Reikiko on Mar 25, 2015 6:01:05 GMT
Basically Bao we are trying to find a way to prevent people from spamming techniques every single round. And make people just 'fight' normally more often
So far 2 potential ideas were raised:
1: A Ki pool of sorts, giving players several charges that recharge every x amount of posts that one doesn't use techniques. (more of this on Pieter's topic)
2: A small temporary PL boost that triggers for each round you don't use a tech, and disappears upon using a tech. (basically +5% PL every round of not using a technique, up to 25~50% and then after using one technique it poofs~)
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