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Post by President Bao on Mar 8, 2015 7:01:11 GMT
The manner you are appealing to me Nai indicates you feel as if the verdict is mine to make or overrule(and more than that, acting as if I didn't *specifically just ask you to enact bya's disciplinary action*, which is a little frustrating to see) - that is not the case, applying the rules is process driven and impersonal.
You're the one doing the write up Nai so it is upon you to analyse (in a neutral and unbiased manner) the flagrancy with which rules were breached, and the number/severity of the rule breaches included within the given warning entry, and apply a judgement of up to 40 points based on this. The infractions in question should be listed as a single entry because they were not recorded prior, which is what I was getting at with my 'double-smack' comment.
I'm not disagreeing with the perm ban being within acceptable bounds Nai of our current process(given his existing warning amounts), and certainly not doing any sort of 'blaming'.
((To me the pm is a red herring distracting from the real issue - the infractions committed before the pm (and this latest set of infractions) which were enacted against without the corresponding warning write up - from what you guys are telling me he's been banned 3 times from cbox without ever having a warning applied for it. If that had been done, bya would already have the corresponding warning amount labelled against his account, and this latest infraction would be a simple matter to resolve. More importantly, it also better informs the one in the wrong of what is not acceptable, and allows them to adjust accordingly. By having not given this feedback it has generated a false impression of acceptable conduct, which is just as much to blame for byas following misbehaviours as he himself is.))
Purging prior impressions of 'the defendant'(bya) and reading that 'submitted evidence'(the pm) is how I came to the notion of it warranting a 10 - saying it is a 40 on it's own is a disproportionately harsh application of the rules which would not, in my opinion, be sustainable if contested. As for the rest of his infractions, direct evidence and eye-witness testimony are both applicable pieces of evidence, use them to reach a corresponding warning amount.
Anyway, this needs to be written up and enacted today please. Include all relevant evidence and apply the judgement that you find the submitted evidence warrants and it will be followed accordingly. Having warnings delivered in a timely manner is definitely a priority. I'd do it myself, but I don't have the time currently, which is why my last response requested that you guys handle it for me.
Finally - I feel you are misunderstanding my position; everyone should be entitled to a defence, I don't defend him cause of some personal attachment or even due to 'softness', I defend him because that is what fair judgement is about, a balanced weighing up of the evidence and someone to speak for the opposition in a neutral and unbiased manner.
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Nai-Ran
Archived
(Transferred to Kari-Ko)
Tag: @nairan
Posts: 450
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Post by Nai-Ran on Mar 8, 2015 8:24:44 GMT
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 8, 2015 18:40:17 GMT
should Kojima be given a chance to dispute this, or at least see the thread before the ban occurs? he's gonna log in and see he's banned, otherwise. also, is he perm-banned in cbox? it would legitimate it 'democratically' (as you guys know, i dislike our current system, but hey.)
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 8, 2015 20:53:28 GMT
I agree he should be able to see it, and I agree with the past sentiment that this thread should be made public to show the deliberation we go through in case there are doubts that the action was arbitrary.
I don't agree that we should allow people to dispute their own warnings, though. If we do, it will allow those who will always argue for themselves and never accept responsibility have an unfair advantage over those who will accept responsibility and attempt reform. I think a better process would be to allow for 3rd party review by other members of the site.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 9, 2015 3:38:23 GMT
It's done. I've banned the global ID twice on both accounts, to be sure he doesn't make a return.
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Nai-Ran
Archived
(Transferred to Kari-Ko)
Tag: @nairan
Posts: 450
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Post by Nai-Ran on Mar 9, 2015 4:30:41 GMT
I only issued a 5-day ban as far as the C-Box goes. I wasn't sure if I would have permission for a permaban, especially since it was before the Shoutbox issues and the PM. That was what the next step up called for on the warning board since I felt at the time that it was at least a 20-pointer.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 9, 2015 19:07:33 GMT
The Ban on the site is an extension ban to the cbox: Same principal. He gets perma-banned on there.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 11, 2015 18:39:16 GMT
This is an example of the debate and resolution we as staff took to get to the decision of permanently banning Byakuya. If anyone has any criticisms to make, then please feel free to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 18:52:28 GMT
The only criticism I have for this is bringing it out into the open and slandering their name anymore than they did to themselves. Yes I am a friend of Kojima's and could of helped him dispute the banning and whatnot but he has decided to not deal with it at this time. I personally take issue with the airing of the entire grievance instead of leaving the dead horse dead.
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Post by Hyoza on Mar 11, 2015 19:38:22 GMT
Personally, I feel it was right to release this thread to the wider site - a member has been permanently banned, and people can now see why and how that decision was made. As Bao has pushed for this site to be as democratic as possible, we should see why the staff have taken this action.
If this were done for any banned members in the future as well, it would also allow us to mitigate the damage bitter ex-members can inflict upon the site's reputation (I have known several smaller RP sites that died due to ban-related schisms). This way, all evidence and discussion of the member's actions are on public display, and no banned member can make false claims about their treatment by site staff.
I can't claim I'm unbiased. I didn't like Kojima, and the stress he caused is one of the main reasons I took my leave of the site last year, since he was creating a less-than-fun atmosphere and I didn't need any more negativity than what real life was already giving me. But I think many others who interacted with him would agree to having a sense of relief on the matter - and while I can understand your misgivings about the matter Ninjin - I don't think this constitutes dragging his reputation through the mud so much as it does protecting the integrity of the site and its rules.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 20:03:04 GMT
Well I have been around for quite some time(since the WODR days) and I personally don't believe in a perma-ban. I understand he may have been rude, inconsiderate, and many of other things, but I don't believe that a perma-ban is the answer. He should be able to cool down and come back with a clear head and given a clean slate. If some way he returns and the attitude remains or he continues on with his behavior then that may be the time to implement something such as this. I don't even understand the warning system and don't see how it adds to order as with or without people are going to be themselves and voice opinions that may be taken the wrong way. His behavior may have been unacceptable to some, but who here can honestly say that they haven't let there emotions get the best of them and went on to vent there frustrations. In actuality it's rather common as I myself can be counted among that crowd as many of you can. He was angry and upset and he vented his frustration as most people do. The fact that some may sit and say oh it still could have been handled better or oh but he had time to cool off an check himself. I say to you...really? You aren't him, you aren't in his head, and we all handle situations differently. Again I am against this perma-ban, but if it must be done so be it. I just feel that people are so clamored to OMG! OMG! This one guy is going to destroy the very foundation of the WOD universe when it couldn't be further from reality. The foundation which WODS stands on reaches as far back as early 2011. No one man, woman, child, animal, or any other entity can destroy the fabric of this site on their own. I have seen admins themselves rip into each other in the past and yet here we stand. Zucceta or Boli is a founding father of WOD and I respect him for allowing every admin and mod to be what they are meant to be instead of grabbing all power and shoving people off. The decision isn't in my hand and I respect whichever which way you go on decisions like this, but I do wish that the mentality that is held by a select few when it comes to Byakuya had a broader outlook. Again, no one entity can kill a site nor push people away. How many times have YOU went to a site personally and thought wow that guys kinda this or that, but you still looked around to see if it was your cup of tea? We are all unique and different individuals. Love and Understanding should always be the judgement used on matters such as this. Remember that we are all different, we are all unique, we have to place ourselves in his shoes, and human love and understanding will always be judge. Have a great day guys Edit* I respect the transparency shown by the staff and I believe that Nin should be the one who talks to Byakuya to smooth all this over so we can go on about being the WOD family we've always been. I am not defending him nor bashing him, I'm simply on the side of peace and understanding.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 11, 2015 20:58:47 GMT
The only criticism I have for this is bringing it out into the open and slandering their name anymore than they did to themselves. The point of moving this into the open was so that people can see and argue this outcome if they feel the need. All of the facts are presented as they were, without spin, and I openly stated my share of fault. Unless you are referring to 'the PM', which was unanimously decided that I shouldn't have kept it to myself and his discourse was unacceptable. Well I have been around for quite some time(since the WODR days) and I personally don't believe in a perma-ban. I understand he may have been rude, inconsiderate, and many of other things, but I don't believe that a perma-ban is the answer. He should be able to cool down and come back with a clear head and given a clean slate. If some way he returns and the attitude remains or he continues on with his behavior then that may be the time to implement something such as this. I don't even understand the warning system and don't see how it adds to order as with or without people are going to be themselves and voice opinions that may be taken the wrong way. The warning system is in place so that he has a chance to 'cool down' and clear his head. He had multiple chances, and squandered all.
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Kadbra
Rising Soul
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Tag: @kadbra
Posts: 106
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Post by Kadbra on Mar 12, 2015 0:29:43 GMT
I find it admirable that you have made this discussion public and open to all to see, it shows that you DO discuss these things in-depth and how stressful it can get for you guys. We're all thankful for the staff that keeps the site going!
I'm not going to act as if I'm going to miss Kojima/Bya. The few times I talked to him, he was aggressive in tone, and I never felt comfortable talking to him - he reminded me too much of some really unpleasant people I've met in my MANY years of forum RP. It probably didn't help that my first interaction with him was seeing him blow up during his first warning where I was one of the cited witnesses, so I obviously have a bias in this matter. But unbiased opinions don't exist anyway, and I felt like putting mine down.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 1:06:59 GMT
Well I have been around for quite some time(since the WODR days) and I personally don't believe in a perma-ban. I understand he may have been rude, inconsiderate, and many of other things, but I don't believe that a perma-ban is the answer. He should be able to cool down and come back with a clear head and given a clean slate. If some way he returns and the attitude remains or he continues on with his behavior then that may be the time to implement something such as this. I don't even understand the warning system and don't see how it adds to order as with or without people are going to be themselves and voice opinions that may be taken the wrong way. The warning system is in place so that he has a chance to 'cool down' and clear his head. He had multiple chances, and squandered all. Zucceta, I support the admins decision and respect the transparency. He no doubt dug his own ditch in the way he conducted himself as he has left a sour taste in many members mouths and no one will go up to bat for him. If his departure means a stress free environment for my fell RP'ers than I support the decision to ban him permanently.
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