Nai-Ran
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Tag: @nairan
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Post by Nai-Ran on Mar 6, 2015 20:03:30 GMT
I don't mind writing up the post for the warning board, but I'm afraid I'm actually going to need to put my foot down on this one. 20 points isn't enough for this. Perhaps if it had just been the Cbox then 20 points would be warranted. However, it wasn't just the Cbox. He then had a large argument with you in the Shoutbox, where he basically circumvented his Cbox ban and insisted he was still in the right. And then there's the PMs that he sent to me AND the PM he sent to Zuccetta before that I was still waiting for you to weigh in on. Enough is enough. All he's going to do is cause more problems. That's just how he is. He's shown us this time and time again. We've been more than reasonable with him and he still doesn't care.
At the very least can we, as staff, vote on this? I know you're all about giving people second chances Bao. It's an admirable quality. However, at some time you need to realize that some people aren't going to get any better with a second, third, or even tenth chance. It wouldn't be stepping outside of the bounds of our warning system either, which is something I know you've been concerned about in the past.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 6, 2015 20:36:05 GMT
Kojima can receive up to 4 strikes at once worth 10 warning points each as per rules, so it looks possible for him to receive a permanent ban for these two very grievous infractions (if his 60 points didn't shrink by 5 in January? Did he make any bad marks there?).
I would say that if we use his past 40 point infraction as a guideline, these two combined (and in quick succession) violations of the rules easily put him over that mark.
Also, a twenty point addition to his Warning will make his two episodes on par penalty-wise with Zucceta's self-imposed warning, which I feel would be incongruous.
I don't like having to throw people off the rolls, and I understand that we want to give people ample opportunity to reform and realize we're serious about the rules, but this has been a pattern of extremely negative and aggressive behavior with Kojima, and it's my guess that it will only continue into the future. He has repeatedly treated the players here with contempt and disrespect, and has never accepted fault for doing so, and will probably continue to operate in the same manner if something displeases him.
I am for adding 40 points and saying goodbye to him if the points didn't shrink (or bringing it to 95 if there was nothing in January) for these two consecutive infractions. He certainly had an infraction in February, and again in March. Players behaving as he does can poison the atmosphere and turn away the kind of good and friendly players we want here.
EDIT: I just realized that I was counting these two events as a singular incident, which they aren't. These were two separate incidents and infractions, so my what happened in January question is kind of moot. I feel the first incident is worth 40 easily with his cbox behavior and nasty letter to Zucceta, and this one is worth at the very least 20, which would put him over the 100 point mark anyway.
I would vote for delivering him with a permanent ban, and at least 60 points combined.
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Koramund
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Post by Koramund on Mar 6, 2015 21:26:50 GMT
He disgusts me, the way he talks reminds me of a kid I despise in my school. The way he types just gives off a aura of self-entitlement, and it just makes me upset. Whenever I try to talk to the guy about something its difficult for him to even see my point, and and I must admit I have personal bias on this. For that I would like to be asked for my vote to not be counted, however if no minds my bias, I would vote for him Perma-banned, he has done this to many times.
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Post by Reikiko on Mar 7, 2015 0:40:56 GMT
Hmm honestly I think that on terms of the PM his attitude shouldn't be tolerated. Whether it would have been to a mod/admin or a regular member, such acts are pretty much akin to bullying. So in my opinion that should receive a more stern punishment than a mere warning. Because merely telling him off will make it appear like he can get away with such ridiculous attitude
I'll provide a more proper input once I'm not drugged on painkillers >_<
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 7, 2015 3:39:48 GMT
I'm not going to deal with this anymore either. I get the point of a system being put in, but when someone gets to the point of 50%, that position stays and any infractions from there need to be doubled on said people getting to that point. The disrespectful manners need to end, and clearly, Kojima's not learned this, time and time again. It's time to send him on his way. Ask yourself this: How much stress has this guy developed you alone? How much stress has he developed all these other people?
Trying to fix the androids was so undermined by his, "My way or the highway," attitude was just the beginning. Emer had tried to reason with him, but he ended up becoming angered by it and felt guilty about the matter. When he was removed from the ban, he 'calmed' for a bit, but in reality, he's held it recluse in him. When Zasho, one of the other members, and Kojima were having conflicting opinions about his character being the 'Vegeta' of the site, he gave no opposing opinion on the matter and asked me to come in, when it was a simple debate on character. Minor? I'd definitely say so, but this was only the tip of the iceberg, to show the, "My way or the highway," mentality when we're trying to run a democratically run system.
Finally, we're getting word of these two moments that happened to Zucceta and Nai-Ran, happening within only a week of each other? Point system or not, this is by far unacceptable! I'm personally at my own limit with him! I gave him a warning myself, after he and ninjin were unbanned, to him, NInjin, and Emer to not let this matter escalate ever again. Ninjin and Emer have prevented themselves from getting into any crazy, overly emotional matters again, but Kojima has not. This has to end and it has to end now, Bao.
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Post by President Bao on Mar 7, 2015 4:53:15 GMT
His current warning level should probably be 50, given it's been 3 months, though admittedly his warning amount was dropped 20 in error at one point (as you can see in the records), which if compensated for makes the 60 currently correct. Admittedly, his absence is the source of his non-receival of warnings (and the chat box bans not being written up - again just want to stress - very important such things be documented)
You are correct, I am inclined to lenience and 'rehabilitation' over 'execution'. I wouldn't dream of denying though that he doesn't seem to take to learning from his mistakes.
Although technically two incidents, no warning was issued at the time meaning we can't go 'double-smacking' him now, that would just give the appearance of circumventing the normal cap and acting in a biased manner. Just combine the two incidents into a single write-up, though feel free to include what warning value each incident individually contributed to the overall.
I do however disagree that such a pm would warrant a 40 warning on it's own, I'd say more like a 10 given he's not directly insulting anyone he's just acting toolish as he explains his frustrations.
I will however also create a 'grievances' board methinks, as an official place for people to file any disputes. Reasonable or not, I want this to be a place where people can dispute something if they feel injustice has occurred, so that those with legitimate concerns can feel secure.
Byas pm there might be an example of such a 'grievance submission', perhaps attached to a notion that Zucetta's warning should be higher than what it was (or that a warning he received be reduced, or so on, whatever the applicable situation). A counter-case could also be submitted, and then it would be up to the community to see if they uphold the current warning amount or adjust it up/down based on the submitted evidence/testimony. (much like a real 'court case' where you can make an appeal to a sentence).
Anyway, gotta run guys, sorry, things are a little busy for me at the moment :X
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Nai-Ran
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Post by Nai-Ran on Mar 7, 2015 5:15:06 GMT
If the PM gets 10, then why not make the incident that happened last night worth 30 or 40? And as I said, Bao, I was waiting for you to weigh in on Zuccetta's PM, on whether or not it should be punishable or not. You pretty much run the show as far as this kind of thing goes, or at least it feels this way. The only ones I got a response from on that subject were Zuccetta and Vipoi. Had I gotten the okay, I would have written up the report ASAP. As much as I don't like to go tossing the blame around on matters like this, I feel that that one's kind of on you. Others may disagree with me though.
Here's the thing. When I stepped up as a mod for this site, it was solely because of drama like this. It drives people away, stresses out everyone involved, and makes places like this unfun to be apart of. Bya has been constantly causing problems here, and you know just as well as anyone else here that he's not going to stop. As far as he's concerned, it's him against the rest of the world and no amount of warnings or bans is going to change that. We're supposed to be a democratic site here, and so far I see 4/9 mods here that are pushing for this((I'm not including Reikiko in this since I don't think she saw past Zucceta's PM. Pain meds can do that)). There are four opinions unaccounted for so far, and the only one who seems to be trying to keep Bya on is you.
Even if you decide to keep him on despite what we're all telling you, you know very well he's a ticking time bomb and is only going to cause more problems. Since I stepped up specifically to put a stop to issues like this, it feels like you're actively working against me while I'm trying to do my job. There's only so far that your good nature can go before the one unappreciative guy you insist on giving way more chances than he deserves ends up driving people away, me included. At this point, I kind of don't see the point in issuing warnings like this and trying to keep things under control if you're going to let the source of the problem continuously come back. It's causing me way more stress than I ever thought possible for a DBZ forum RP, and it's not something I can keep doing.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 7, 2015 5:34:58 GMT
I'm not sure if I agree that it should be counted as double-smacking him, or we should worry about perceptions over the fairness of fact. Perceptions aren't always fair, but applying rules evenly and deliberately are. We agree that this was technically two incidents, and so I'm of the opinion we should treat them as such because otherwise it will be unfair to any future violator who has their punishment meted out instantly and unilaterally rather than opening a forum for discussion.
This was a case where a special instance was made because Zucceta didn't want to be the enforcer as she was involved in the first situation. While we were discussing the severity of his violation, a second and entirely separate violation occurred days later with another player.
If just for example Bya erupted tomorrow on someone else, would we say that we can't apply a separate punishment for that because we're still deliberating these past two events?
I think we need to address each situation separately and with the evenness it deserves. Our own deliberation time shouldn't really be a factor, because that would cause violations to be addressed in an uneven manner.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 16:19:28 GMT
I've seen Bya freak out countless times. Be rude, etc.
Doesn't surprise me that he would do something like that, when you try to explain something and he believes you're wrong. He loses his temper.
I believe he brings too much negativity to this lovely place.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 7, 2015 23:31:42 GMT
He does not show any remorse for or accept blame on either incident, given his response to the moved reply on the Warning Board. He believes he does not deserve a Warning at all, given his words: I didn't see what set him off the second time, but I think Bya deserves a warning of some sort too. His attitude was very abrupt and he was speaking in a rude manner even before the argument, and his response in caps with ellipses to your question about Pipa was over the top. (Not sure if this is the correct place for the suggestion, apologies if not) Should try finding out everything about it before trying to say someone deserves a warning/ban. Hello, Kojima. I was witness to what occurred, and would have captured the screens and added the Warning myself if I'd known the mechanics of it then -- your behavior was unacceptable regardless of your grading issue. No one deserves to be spoken to in such an abrupt and rude manner as Zucceta was, with aggressive capitalizing etc, and no one should be allowed to speak to someone in such a disrespectful and bullying manner. The cbox is an extension of the site, and the same rules apply to everyone equally there as they do here. wodsouls.freeforums.net/thread/2114/moved-warnings-threadThis only increases my feeling that the only solution is to say goodbye to Kojima. His attitude is that of a bully. Even there, in his response, he was attempting to pressure me for my decision, and implying that it was an incorrect one, instead of admitting his culpability and taking responsibility for his actions. He has shown no willingness to change whatsoever. Moreover, he feels himself invulnerable to the rules and believes he was completely in the right.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 7, 2015 23:44:58 GMT
I would like to give him an ultimatum of 'play nice, tone down the aggression, admit culpability in your arguments and baiting'. I think that my decision on a permanent ban would ultimately depend on his response to the ultimatum.
With majority approval, I would send him a PM (with all staff sitting in) describing his situation.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 8, 2015 0:23:18 GMT
For the record, if we ban Kojima I want the public to see this thread as an example of staff workings and deliberations.
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Nai-Ran
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Post by Nai-Ran on Mar 8, 2015 0:36:15 GMT
I have no problems with this.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 8, 2015 1:21:38 GMT
I agree with this as our next move.
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Nai-Ran
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Post by Nai-Ran on Mar 8, 2015 6:02:09 GMT
wodsouls.freeforums.net/thread/2114/moved-warnings-thread?page=1&scrollTo=11276I was open to the idea of sending him the PM at first, although it was against my better judgement. However, after seeing that thread I'm going to have to put my foot down again. If you want to keep letting Bya tear the site up after this, then by all means go ahead. I'm afraid that I won't be sticking around to deal with it anymore though. Not as a mod, nor as a roleplayer. The amount of disrespect that Bya is able to get away with with nothing more than a slap on the wrist is utterly ridiculous and not something that I support. You're a great guy, Bao, but this kind of leniency is unheard of. As someone who's spent way too much time documenting all of the crap he's pulled and has gotten more worked up dealing with him than I care to admit, I'm done with it. Not only can not I keep going as a mod when you refuse to let me do the job I signed up to deal with, but I don't want to keep going as a player knowing that this kind of behavior is going to go unpunished. One way or another, I'm done dealing with it.
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