Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on May 17, 2017 1:05:18 GMT
We are all for creativity but we are also for balance. You've consitently have suggested techniques that are at their core design broken. Thats why you've faced pushback.
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Post by Helix Crust on May 17, 2017 2:20:23 GMT
Any tech that is so useful that it puts anyone who doesnt have it at a disadvantage is likely to be denied. Same thing with techs that shift the balance. Your human techs essentially change the entire pacing of Human's playstyle.
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
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Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 17, 2017 5:08:43 GMT
I'll be pretty blunt Ryder , since you've been with your reviewers. First, your math on the human bonus is flat wrong. Whatever you think the formula is, it's wrong. It's much better than 1% compared to the top shop. Next, the techs you've proposed are just ways to buff your character. That's all. They hit our power gaming alarms, so we deny them. Basically, you can't have a character that operates in a different manner than everyone else just because you want it to. Its like playing Monopoly and insisting you get 200 bucks every turn while everyone else still gets it just when they pass go. It won't fly. Everyone is on the same rails as everyone else. You get to pick what rails you're gonna ride, but once you're on, you're on. This doesn't mean that you can't be creative. Players have contributed plenty of great tech ideas (and other ideas, species, UCs, etc) to Souls. But it can't be something that just baldly gives you an advantage because you threw a few extra tech slots into it. It doesn't work like that. Instead of trying to pump your character's growth and PL up with unfeasible techs, I recommend that you look through past implementations of things to get a feel for what flies and what does not.
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Post by Vennel on May 17, 2017 5:14:39 GMT
I don't know where you're getting the 10% bonus to zeni gains for humans being .968% instead? If you mean its a small bonus in the grand scope of things, yes, you'd be correct. However, it still is a BONUS. The humans also have the highest final trans multiplier. The races are balanced as optimally as we can, barring some racial updates that will be coming out. Technique slots are worth 1 technique. That's it. There is not real limit to them. Sure, you can only make so many depending on your PL. But your PL is never limited. That is the way they work for a reason. The mechanical balance creates a delicate ecosystem of causes and effects with each other, when one side gets out of balance, it has to be changed back or many other things have to be changed as well.
Trust and believe.
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EmilCin
Newcomer
Tag: @emilcin
OOC Name: EmilCin
Posts: 6
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Post by EmilCin on May 17, 2017 5:41:04 GMT
Just a general observation as I've yet to apply or create techniques. But from the few profiles I've read, it seems like 80% of techniques are generally the same. Everyone has their energy beam, or an explosive sphere, or piercing beam and they barely differentiate from one another. It's mostly flavor as opposed to actual unique differences and functions.
Why would I waste time and Zeni learning kamehameha from the turtle teacher when I can just make my own custom beam that's functionally and mechanically the same? What I think Ryder is getting at is that people make custom techniques, but they're mostly flavor instead of actual specialization and mechanics beyond the bare bones basics. Which I will admit, I haven't read Ryder's technique applications, but if you're making things that are purely advantaged, that's not very good.
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
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Zeni: 1,247
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 17, 2017 6:52:43 GMT
All N1s, UP2s, and MP3s are functionally the same, yeah. But there are variants that offer many different effects, where you pay a damage cost for their use. And for sure, new effects for variants can be made (and often are).
And there are Specials, that operate outside the norm of any techs.
I for one would be very happy to see KP costs for variant branches lowered to 1 > 2 > 2 to reflect their damage output. I think it'd throw more creativity into builds. But a change like that would require the agreement of all 3 admins and a site vote prolly.
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Post by Vennel on May 17, 2017 6:53:06 GMT
Why would I waste time and Zeni learning kamehameha from the turtle teacher when I can just make my own custom beam that's functionally and mechanically the same? Because the turtle teacher is the only one that can teach you kienzan, which is a powerful special technique. But aside from that, the reason why we don't allow custom mechanic attacks, is because that is meant to be the realm of actual SPECIAL techniques. If we allowed everyone to do that with any sort of technique, it would supremely depreciate the value of specials. Furthermore, Souls is not trying to become a mechanics heavy experience. From the start, it was made to be a free form experience, with slight mechanical changes made over time to where it is now, so that there is a general idea of how things should go. Numbers to back up the story, and to give DE threads the amount of gravity they're meant to. Basically, creativity in words and story first, should be the priority. Not the creation of a new mechanic, or buffing existing ones.
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EmilCin
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Post by EmilCin on May 17, 2017 11:45:50 GMT
Because the turtle teacher is the only one that can teach you kienzan, which is a powerful special technique. But aside from that, the reason why we don't allow custom mechanic attacks, is because that is meant to be the realm of actual SPECIAL techniques. If we allowed everyone to do that with any sort of technique, it would supremely depreciate the value of specials. Furthermore, Souls is not trying to become a mechanics heavy experience. From the start, it was made to be a free form experience, with slight mechanical changes made over time to where it is now, so that there is a general idea of how things should go. Numbers to back up the story, and to give DE threads the amount of gravity they're meant to. Basically, creativity in words and story first, should be the priority. Not the creation of a new mechanic, or buffing existing ones. Not to nitpick but I said kamehameha as my example, not kienza. Kienza is an obvious special technique which is part of the 20% that have a more special mechanical function. Where as kame is a technique that is simply flavor, and the 'signature technique' that just about the whole dragonball canon universe knows. So why use a tech slot on that when I could flavor my own beam strike and it's branch? I see what you're saying but then why aren't there special techniques with more personalization? The only special techniques you can learn are from schools or teachers, you can't make your own at say every 100k PL so you have something that's uniquely your own. Though if you become a teacher you can make your own, but then everyone will be rushing to become a teacher so they can corner the market on special techniques. I'm just proposing what it seems Ryder is getting at and I somewhat agree. But I also wholly understand what you're saying, this place is definitely more focused on good writing and story. I used to be a part of a one piece Community very similar to this one and they lasted a very long time, while also being able to do more custom/mechanically varied techniques. Because of simply gaining a technique anywhere from 4k-6k PL, techniques were gained at higher EXP and the higher EXP slot of the technique the more powerful it was. Because you only had so many slots, along with a stamina stat cost/restriction. Not proposing we add this as that would mean changing the entire system but, I for one would like to see something a bit more progressive in encouraging people to be more creative with their techniques besides 'flavored beam' 'flavored tracking beam' 'flavored ki strike'. Or perhaps a change the special techniques which are none too specialized.
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EmilCin
Newcomer
Tag: @emilcin
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Post by EmilCin on May 17, 2017 11:47:47 GMT
All N1s, UP2s, and MP3s are functionally the same, yeah. But there are variants that offer many different effects, where you pay a damage cost for their use. And for sure, new effects for variants can be made (and often are). And there are Specials, that operate outside the norm of any techs. I for one would be very happy to see KP costs for variant branches lowered to 1 > 2 > 2 to reflect their damage output. I think it'd throw more creativity into builds. But a change like that would require the agreement of all 3 admins and a site vote prolly. Copy and paste. I've read the variants and sure they offer some level of customization but, then everyone also has that same sheet to look at and decide on. Instead of being encouraged to come up with something different. I would like to give them a read, what new effects have you seen made for variants?
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
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Post by Zucceta on May 17, 2017 12:00:42 GMT
We don't need extremely unique, functionally different techniques. This site prides itself on mechanical simplicity to aid story and character. If you want a fighting game, this isn't the place.
That said, I'm always open to suggestions (with simplicity in mind) to improve all aspects of the site.
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EmilCin
Newcomer
Tag: @emilcin
OOC Name: EmilCin
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Post by EmilCin on May 17, 2017 15:00:18 GMT
I'm just presenting the position Ryder seems to be going towards. I definitely like the simplicity as it makes it so not every thread turns into a debate and so that wild techniques don't need much consideration. But something a bit more progressive for the creativity of techniques would be interesting. Though since I've yet to check out the tech applications and a majority of characters and their techniques, maybe I haven't seen the good ones. I definitely like the detail you've put into your explosive techniques Zucceta, along with other techniques I've seen such as Somatotrope's metal defense,
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Post by Vennel on May 17, 2017 18:25:47 GMT
Not to nitpick but I said kamehameha as my example, not kienza. Kienza is an obvious special technique which is part of the 20% that have a more special mechanical function. Where as kame is a technique that is simply flavor, and the 'signature technique' that just about the whole dragonball canon universe knows. So why use a tech slot on that when I could flavor my own beam strike and it's branch? Because until you complete training with a teacher, you can't move on to another. So by not learning kamehameha, you haven't finished that training. I see what you're saying but then why aren't there special techniques with more personalization? The only special techniques you can learn are from schools or teachers, you can't make your own at say every 100k PL so you have something that's uniquely your own. Though if you become a teacher you can make your own, but then everyone will be rushing to become a teacher so they can corner the market on special techniques. I'm just proposing what it seems Ryder is getting at and I somewhat agree. But I also wholly understand what you're saying, this place is definitely more focused on good writing and story. I used to be a part of a one piece Community very similar to this one and they lasted a very long time, while also being able to do more custom/mechanically varied techniques. Because of simply gaining a technique anywhere from 4k-6k PL, techniques were gained at higher EXP and the higher EXP slot of the technique the more powerful it was. Because you only had so many slots, along with a stamina stat cost/restriction. Not proposing we add this as that would mean changing the entire system but, I for one would like to see something a bit more progressive in encouraging people to be more creative with their techniques besides 'flavored beam' 'flavored tracking beam' 'flavored ki strike'. Or perhaps a change the special techniques which are none too specialized.[/quote]
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Post by Vennel on May 17, 2017 18:41:20 GMT
Not to nitpick but I said kamehameha as my example, not kienza. Kienza is an obvious special technique which is part of the 20% that have a more special mechanical function. Where as kame is a technique that is simply flavor, and the 'signature technique' that just about the whole dragonball canon universe knows. So why use a tech slot on that when I could flavor my own beam strike and it's branch? IIRC, Because until you complete training with a teacher, you can't move on to another. So by not learning kamehameha, you haven't finished that training. I see what you're saying but then why aren't there special techniques with more personalization? The only special techniques you can learn are from schools or teachers, you can't make your own at say every 100k PL so you have something that's uniquely your own. Though if you become a teacher you can make your own, but then everyone will be rushing to become a teacher so they can corner the market on special techniques. And also the palace. The reason people don't rush off for the school or palace more, though, is specifically because of the price. It's steep, and costly, making it a heavy investment in time for money, rather than power level. And as you notice, only, like, two people have gone and made that choice for a school/palace in the entirety of the site's lifespan. Kind of shoots your argument in the foot, huh? Everything else has been sort of mentioned, touched on, or handled by other staff members in this thread.
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Post by Articho Reville on May 18, 2017 23:39:01 GMT
Just gonna toss my two cents in cause I didn't see anyone else mention it, but the perk of having a teacher train you beyond a special is that the two techniques they teach you are free and dont take up any slots.
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