Tekuma Mayakon
Archived
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Angel of Darkness(x9P) Overdrive(x12)
Zeni: 1,480
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Tag: @tekuma
OOC Name: Zelda's Lullaby
Posts: 576
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Post by Tekuma Mayakon on May 3, 2017 19:51:38 GMT
So there was the topic of nerfing androids which has been discussed in cbox.
A few suggestions of mine are:
-Make Overdrive DE-only; like Heran's Thirst for Battle. Overdrive is strong as is if you consider it especially if you use Android Durability, essentially giving you an added +x4 defense for one round.
-Overdrive use in DEs, if the android flees it is a -50%.
Use this for example: Thirst for Battle: Whenever a Heran is at a Death Enabled Thread, they gain an x2 offensive boost to their transformation. However, if they run away from the fight, the shame will embarrass them greatly, giving them a – 50% penalty to their gains for that thread.
- Android Rebuild Cost: 2500/5,000/10,000 zeni
- Android Overdrive Repair Cost: 2,000z per tier used. High Energy is 750z; making it more worthwhile to get it.
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Post by Cipher 24 on May 3, 2017 22:14:50 GMT
Looking over some things, I think the first two suggestions are not such a good idea. Making Overdrive a DE only ability is basically kneecapping androids' early game (remember, Overdrive is their only starting trans), and hampering them elsewhere. Any non DE thread (including tournaments) will basically have them at a disadvantage because one of their core abilities is locked out.
Remember, until they hit 100k, in which case they can buy either the High Energy module or the Absorption Module, the only ability they have combat wise outside of Overdrive is Durability (which, really isn't that great to begin with). Meanwhile, other races have rather useful racial traits and decent starting transformations, that DON'T require them to shell out at minimum 1k zeni each time it's used.
The gimick with androids is that they're very zeni based. All of their abilities (except for being unable to be sensed and durability) require them to pay zeni. For most other races, they would just buy a scouter, heavy weights, a senzu bean and a ship, and be done with it, with everything else being optional. Androids have to buy these, AS WELL as having to pay to unlock/use their abilities. Even their more potent ones, the absorbption module and the high energy module, can only be purchased once they hit 100k, while everyone else gets their racial traits right off the bat.
The main issue with Overdrive isn't the set up. It's that the staff haven't been enforcing the drop in multiplier each time it's used. This is more an issue with the staff than the ability itself. Adding limitations and increasing the reallignment costs is only just punishing androids for using one of their few starting traits.
In regards to reconstruction, yes it's a powerful ability, one that increases in cost each time it's used. While I don't mind the increase in cost, take a moment to think about how often this trait is even used. I can only remember two instances when an android reconstructed. Vipoi after the Realigner Red arc, and Cipher after Vennel destroyed him. Yes, it's a strong ability, but it's very circumstantial, and rarely used.
Making an android's overdrive like a Hera-seijin's Thirst for Battle is a terrible idea. Again, this is not only restricting the use of the ability, but also adds a secondary punishment onto it. Not only are they going to be losing zeni realligning the ability, but also potentially losing 50% of their gains? The only trans I can think of that does this is the Arcosians Full Power form and even then, it doesn't have a major restriction on it, and doesn't have a zeni cost.
The reason why Thirst for Battle works for Hera-seijins is because they are pretty powerful all they way through. 4x right off the bat, 8x at 20k, they're pretty much powerful all the way through. A slight lul around mid/late game, but then their end game rivals a saiyans. Slap this 2x multiplier on that and they're beasts all the way through. Then -50% if they flee restriction makes sense in this case. For androids, they need it in the beginning and it keeps them competitive throughout, their endgame being less than most.
As I said before, the main thing is getting the staff to make sure they enforce Overdrive's main mechanic. After all, Androids were supposed to have the down side as to actively requiring Zeni.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 23:52:27 GMT
Dr. Breech used it I believe used Reconstruction to escape death as a mini-spider bot from a major fight on Konats. So... That's at least a third time it's been used.
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Post by Cipher 24 on May 4, 2017 14:46:34 GMT
Ah yes, that's right. He was getting reconstructed wasn't he?
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Post by Majin Kaza on May 4, 2017 15:12:27 GMT
I think the problem lies in the fact that Androids are never at a stage in the game where they are in a clear disadvantage compared to other races PL and multiplier wise. All of their transformations, they get at a very early rate, and all of them are average, and above average if they activate Overdrive. This, combined with the insane well-roundedness their Android Shop gives them, makes them, in my opinion, one of the most Overpowered races. The items androids can buy give them clear advantages over others in fights, such as absorbing attacks and PL, being able to save tech slots/acquire new ones, reducing the costs of their Overdrive (Which is one of their only flaws, and its a minor one), among many more. I'd like to point you all to a chart Fleece created where he compared all of the races and their multipliers, and put them inside of a chart: FLEECE'S COMPARISON CHARTOnly getting a quick glance at this chart, you can see that Androids are ALWAYS in the green and/or blue with Overdrive (Even in Endgame when they use Overdrive!). This makes them able to fight on equal grounds with the most powerful races at any stage of the game, WHILE having all of the other benefits that come with being an Android, such as their great UCs, and the comfort the Android Shop items give them I'd say we either tone down the luxuries the Android Shop gives them, or nerf their transformations/Overdrive. Having both of these things gives Androids no clear flaw/drawback, which, in my opinion, ANY race should have.
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Tekuma Mayakon
Archived
Zeni Transferred to Colba
PL: 104,586
Angel of Darkness(x9P) Overdrive(x12)
Zeni: 1,480
Shoki: 0
Tag: @tekuma
OOC Name: Zelda's Lullaby
Posts: 576
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Post by Tekuma Mayakon on May 4, 2017 15:34:30 GMT
Current suggestion after modifications:
- Android Rebuild Cost: 2500/5,000/10,000 zeni
- Android Overdrive Repair Cost: 2,000z per tier used. High Energy is 750z
Android Transformations:
x3 OD Starting Transformation
α x4 (x7 OD) 50,000
β x9 (x12 OD) 100,000
Σ x13 (x16 Overdrive) 150,000
Meta x19(x22 OD) 220k
Ω x25 (x28 OD) 300,000
Deus ex Machina x40 (x43 OD) 400,000
Justification: Androids get to rebuild a lot, with their durability accessible as well they never really have a poor point. DB wish resets both rebuild and death cost from what I know, and they have a lower trans set because of android shop luxuries.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on May 5, 2017 6:30:24 GMT
Why was it being discussed? They've already been nerfed and balanced from previous incarnations. This feels a bit reactionary. They've been balanced around being race with a consistent average for the most part (and sometimes requiring OD to keep up even then). There's only one transformation-point in the game where they have a clear advantage.
If you feel that Androids ought to have a disadvantageous moment, however, I can understand to a degree. I just don't think its necessary.
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Tekuma Mayakon
Archived
Zeni Transferred to Colba
PL: 104,586
Angel of Darkness(x9P) Overdrive(x12)
Zeni: 1,480
Shoki: 0
Tag: @tekuma
OOC Name: Zelda's Lullaby
Posts: 576
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Post by Tekuma Mayakon on May 5, 2017 11:48:04 GMT
Androids are very well rounded, and I'd like to have them have a disadvantageous moment like my chart above; in exchange for the luxuries of the android shop.
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Post by Lord Xylo on May 5, 2017 12:14:43 GMT
I think they're fine as-is, personally. Overdrive is already expensive enough; spending a fortune just to barely break even in a fight with another race seems pretty pointless to me. Repairs I could see being upped slightly (which in turn technically buffs High-Energy module) seeing as it's a pretty strong UC, but OD and their current modifiers shouldn't be altered.
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 17, 2017 5:43:09 GMT
Yeah, all those 1000 Zeni shots add up over time. Is Overdrive strong? Sure is. Do I need to it to compete? Most times I did.
I'd prolly be around 430,000 without it.
Fleece's table is wrong and kinda misleading a couple places. I'm guessing he's using a +/-2 range for 'green/average' and anything above that is blue and anything below that is red. Problem with that is, 2 modifier points matter a whole lot more in the beginning than they do in the end, and some of the gaps get a whole lot bigger as you stretch into endgame. Androids starting out suck, for instance, and his color code doesn't capture that at all. So it doesn't really give a reliable view of where each species really is in relation to another. Also, the Majin stats are incorrect. He messed up around his x10/x13 for the zorbs.
The Androids are steady climbers, like Majin and Namekians. They quite often have to pay to be able to compete with others who never have to pay any Zeni for their competitive modifiers.
They've been downed some already, too. I wouldn't mind seeing a 'feast or famine' change, where the repair cost was dramatically increased and the modifiers were lowered across the board. But it'd have to coincide with a big boost to OD, so that Androids really did have an edge when they used to. It'd probably take a lot of thinking to get down right though, and Androids have already been tinkered with probably more than any species on Souls.
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