Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 29, 2016 10:20:37 GMT
This is an idea that I've been softly peddling for a while now, that I'd like site input on to see if it's at all desired. Before y'all weigh in, a short history: When I made KP I was at lunch and had just read a great post Hyoza made that inspired me and so I quickly jotted the KP idea down and then posted about it when I got home. I didn't really sit down to think it out or set any terms. All I did was look at the tiers and said tier 1 costs 1, tier 2 costs 2, tier 3 costs 3. Since V2 and UV3 have the numbers 2 and 3 in them and progress in sequence from an N1, they are considered Tier 2 and Tier 3 techniques. But these sequential designations for tech tiering are arbitrary. There is no reason why we couldn't have called them Tier A, Tier B, Tier C or something else entirely. So upon reflection, tying KP usage to tier slot was a mistake I made. If I proposed KP all over again, it'd be different. I'd define terms, where 1 KP = 1/3rd of power. Therefor, I'd much rather KP be tied to power output, which would mean that KP looks like this: 33% PL = 1 KP 66% PL = 2 KP 100% PL = 3 KP It's a simplification and refinement of the system, which would tie your Ki Points to your energy, and your energy to your KP. This change would mean that the tech tier expenditures would look like the following: N1/SU/V2 = 1 KP UP2/UV3/SU2 = 2KP MP3/SU3 = 3 KP Instead of what they currently look like, which is this: N1/SU = 1 KP UP2/V2/SU2 = 2 KP MP3/SU3/UV3 = 3 KP Variant cost would be lowered to reflect their power output. Their special quirk would be paid for by their higher slot-per-KP cost and their flattening at 66% of output. I feel that the use of many more variants in fighting would create more dynamism and tactics in our fighting than what our players currently experience. Sure, V2s and UV3s will effectively outstrip N1s and UP2s in most instances. My answer to that is, so what? Right now the opposite is true, with very high instances of N1s and above being used, and not much variant play. If the addition of more variant play adds additional competitiveness to a close fight and increases the fun factor, why worry that N1s and UP2s aren't being used as often? Many, many techniques in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z have a 'variant' effect. In fact, I'd argue that almost all techniques besides a few finishers do -- kikoho, destructo disk, volcano explosion, special beam cannon, death beam, death saucer, thunder flash attack, etc. but we rarely see variant effects used outside of specials, which I think is a disservice to the competitive experience we could be having which would prove much deeper than bald arithmetic.
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Post by Alaistair on May 29, 2016 10:29:27 GMT
Due to their powerful nature, I'd think what if they had a 1.5 KP Cost for V2, and 2.5 KP cost for UV3? Having them drop by a whole KP, I feel, would make the techniques far too strong.
Now, there's also a different idea behind why I'm thinking this: I've been wondering on what if brawling combat would result in a .5 KP increase? It's not dedicating full development of ki power. It gets the body heated up, so it can perform it the deeds, but it has a slower development than directly charging... Or, what we could do is have direct ki charging recover 2 KP instead of one, but you're leaving yourself open for brawling.
If dynamic's the intended wish, then I feel there'd be more to attend to, than just targeting the KP. This is the step in the right direction though.
*Added Thought*
Basic Ki blasts only generate .5 KP, rather than melee. You're expunging energy and getting a full 1 KP in return for attacking at long range safety... That doesn't strike me as something right.
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Post by Kaula on May 29, 2016 10:34:14 GMT
I'd rather we not go into .5 KP territory. That's always sloppy and just not fun. If we want to tier things we could always double the ki pool so we can use these ".5"s as whole numbers.
Regardless, I personally, am on the fence about this. I will rest on it and then post my full thoughts after I awaken.
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Post by Alaistair on May 29, 2016 11:27:05 GMT
Hmm... That there's an interesting thought. If we DID implement a higher KP, we could determine Special techniques at higher levels, and depending on schools of thought, perhaps an introduction to other ultimates aside from King Kai and Beelzebub's..?
Just tossing thoughts around at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2016 11:42:52 GMT
I'm on the fence as well. I can see definite benefits to this, including making combat far more interesting. It might even result in some new variants. As for the increased Ki Pool, that's an interesting thought. It makes a good point about Specials, and Ultimates. I kinda like it, actually, since right now a MP3 totally drains you, which doesn't really happen with one attack in Dragonball. It might also make combat more interesting. I think, at least, it's worth looking into.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2016 12:45:29 GMT
We need to get rid of Ultimate Variation 3 Techniques entirely I feel rather then change the system up like this. The reason why is that they have no distinct advantage at all over Variation Techniques of the second tier even with this change. They both do 66% of one's power level and as a result are exactly the same due to having the ability to have one additional effect. Changing the Ki Point around for Ultimate Variation 3 will not change the fact that Variation tier 2 techniques are far more useful. The reason being one is expending more ki points in the original format for one technique to do the same damage as the other variant technique when compared mechanically is broken. The fact one less ki point is being used in the new suggestion for Ultimate Variation attacks does not help this suggestion go through at all simply because it really gives the technique type an advantage over the other.
If the Ultimate Variation techniques had something like "This does 66% of a person's power plus gives the user the ability to add two mechanics to an attack," then it might be useful. If we put this to a vote as it is now though I'd absolutely vote no because I'd be getting the same thing with my vote.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 29, 2016 14:26:23 GMT
Hi Denim, and welcome. UV3s are actually the only 66% PL variant. V2s have a mechanical effect added but are only 33% PL, the same as an N1. This sort of confusion over the tiering is another good reason to have the KP equal to PL output. I know there have been some suggestions to expand the KP pool via either decimalisation or doubling the pool to allow for greater number of rational numbers, but I feel that is tangential to whether or not KP should represent output or whether variant effects should be more-represented. I'm going to try to select someone for a test thread once I'm out of this DE, with one or two people, so we have more to report.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2016 15:03:02 GMT
Vi-Poi I do know UV 3s are a 66% PL attack with a mechanical variant. Yet it says absolutely nothing in there about a UV2 doing 33% with a mechanical variant. In fact it only has the value I have just put in bold and underlined and that's only for a normal UP2 attack under that section. In other words, that information you have just given isn't even written in there about the 33% except for N1 in the combat mechanical rules making possibly a player think, "Oh, they could possibly do the same amount of damage whether this type or that type of attack at that tier." You all need to clarify and add that in there if it's not in there. If a UV2 is meant to do 33% add that in the rules, if not, then don't since the rule you currently speak of is, "Knowledge you should know but can't find within the rules in that section." That aside, even with your suggestion on the table I do not think it would change the way the combat system currently works. All it would do is change someone wasting 3 KP in a thread to use a UV3 to only using 2 KP in its current state and maybe allow them to throw out an N1 or SU technique afterwards, which a UV2 can already do. It still doesn't give UV3s any sort of difference from a V2 because UV3s are as quoted: Clarify that rule about UV2s you just gave me and I might change my vote to lower KP usage of a UV3 from three to two.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on May 29, 2016 16:08:14 GMT
Hi Denim. I would just like to clarify that this isn't something we're voting on quite yet, and perhaps it might be best if you "test" the system slightly more before suggesting huge overhauls to the way the site mechanics work.
The V2 doing 33% is pretty much stated due to the fact that, rather than an UP2 (66%) it adds an effect. I think this is comprehensible to most anybody with the way it is currently written.
Anyway, here's my thoughts/suggestions.
1. I think Variants and the KP system are mostly fine. I have personally and recently used variant techniques to great effect, with Zucceta's fight versus Bing (a stronger opponent) and being able to utilise KP management and a variant attack (a Homing variant) to secure victory. Personal experiences might not mean that there aren't problems, but certainly I don't believe that variants need a PL buff, necessarily.
1b. Maybe the variant effects need a buff. PL means quite a lot in fights, and sometimes the variant effects on offer could feel underwhelming versus raw power. It might be necessary that we upgrade the effect rather than the power level.
2. If we do change variants in any way, I believe we should move away from a standardised, generic system. If we do change how they work, I suggest we instead focus on buffing each TYPE of variant in a unique and individual way. We have one standing example of this in our current system, although its labelled as an UP2 or MP3: the "split" attacks. While operating at a full PL, this attack can target multiple people (although the PL splits per target)--surely this is a variant effect, in reality? I believe so.
We could go through the variants' list and update each variant, buffing PL %'s and the effects if need be, so as to break away from the genericism of 33/66% + effect. It'd be the most work of any update, but I feel it'd be the most rewarding.
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Post by Helix Crust on May 29, 2016 18:41:43 GMT
It is my opinion that the original change proposed by vi would effectively make non variant attacks besides MP3's obsolete.
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Post by Kaula on May 29, 2016 20:50:10 GMT
>new person coming in and suggesting we get rid of things without trying the system first. Flashbacks of zod hnnnnnnnng<
In ALL seriousness uv3s are pretty damn good.
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Bing Gan
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Post by Bing Gan on May 29, 2016 21:09:56 GMT
I have personally and recently used variant techniques to great effect, with Zucceta's fight versus Bing (a stronger opponent) and being able to utilise KP management and a variant attack (a Homing variant) to secure victory. I'd like to make note of the fact that the Homing Variant used to defeat me, while incredibly clever, only succeeded due to your use of the Ki Charge support skill. Had the flexibility of using either an MP3 or UV3 in the next few turns not been available to you, I'm fairly certain I would have survived (if you had used an MP3 I could feasibly have dodged it. If you had charged/used a UV3 I could have charged a UP2 in response.). It was a cool victory, but I wouldn't attribute all of your success to the variant alone.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on May 29, 2016 23:10:22 GMT
I have personally and recently used variant techniques to great effect, with Zucceta's fight versus Bing (a stronger opponent) and being able to utilise KP management and a variant attack (a Homing variant) to secure victory. I'd like to make note of the fact that the Homing Variant used to defeat me, while incredibly clever, only succeeded due to your use of the Ki Charge support skill. Had the flexibility of using either an MP3 or UV3 in the next few turns not been available to you, I'm fairly certain I would have survived (if you had used an MP3 I could feasibly have dodged it. If you had charged/used a UV3 I could have charged a UP2 in response.). It was a cool victory, but I wouldn't attribute all of your success to the variant alone. Correct, but I'm not sure thats entirely relevant to the point. The point was there are situations when variants have been used successfully, and I only gave one example--but I could probably find more.
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Bing Gan
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Post by Bing Gan on May 29, 2016 23:59:34 GMT
Zucceta I figure that it might be relevant seeing as the variant wasn't the only technique element at play in that scenario. Either way, the example is fine.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 30, 2016 1:54:08 GMT
It is my opinion that the original change proposed by vi would effectively make non variant attacks besides MP3's obsolete. Yes, outside of most circumstances, and that's kind of the point. Right now the opposite is true. When's the last time you all saw a V2 being used? I think fights would be much more interesting if they relied not only on PL and timing KP usage, but on effects and countering effects. What I propose would coincide with a broadening of the variant effects, to allow for a much wider array of choices. A lot of Dragon Ball, DBZ, and Super wins came about not from who was stronger but who had more novel ki skills.
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