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Post by Kaile on Nov 9, 2015 20:00:36 GMT
Before you read the rest of this: Please try to just offer criticism not just straight up negative feedback. If you don't like the idea's but can't think of a way that might improve the idea for later use, just say "I don't think these would be a good idea for X reason" and nothing else, there's no reason to point out every single flaw in all the suggestions without ever even ATTEMPTING to offer potential idea's for improvements.
So... I thought of this idea while reading Shade's most recent post. It's a new "Injury System" mechanic rather than the one we have now. As it stands the current one makes it so "3 hits you're out" kinda thing. The problem with this is that after 2 hits you're at 50% which, to my knowledge, means you can't win the fight. So my idea is instead making it so that your PL acts as HP. Giving those that have a higher amount of PL more HP and more lethal. To my knowledge, no attack can knock you lower than 1 injury stage, which if this is true means a 5m attack on someone within 75% of their PL can't kill them PERIOD. This new system will make those of a significantly higher PL that much more deadly, it'll also make sparring better in the sense that the person who's being the 'trainer' (In my case it'd be Shade for our current thread) can take a LOT more hits and truly act like that "More experienced and more deadly" fighter. To me this would actually make the Ki System far more bearable (Though that's more of a personal thing, not a fault of the system itself) and it'd also just make fighting seem more "DBZ-esk" as we've seen fighters take numerous powerful attacks to the face and still keep fighting whereas the current injury system means 3 powerful attacks and you're done. I understand the ki system is here to alleviate that problem, but in my honest opinion this would make the entire fight scenes on the site just feel and seem MORE like in the show.
Ki Blasts and Punches. These are.... pointless and basically just filler. Since they DON'T do anything, I've been trying to think of a way to suggest that'd make them worth SOMETHING. Nobody on the site can actually say these have won them a fight or anything because they legit can't, to my knowledge they do no damage no matter what your PL is. So going alongside my previous statement I'd like to suggest they do 1% of your total PL. This isn't much even at 5m PL, however it DOES mean that someone with 5m PL that fires one of these at some random grunt with a PL well below 1% of theirs, it'll obliterate them like it should (Same with a punch). Now in the big scheme of things most people who're that strong are likely to be fighting others that strong as well, thus this actually doesn't do anything to those of equal strength (As has been shown in the show).
KP Charging. This is the biggest reason I hate the KP system, the fact that you can't charge it. Now maybe it's for balance reasons idk, but here's my suggestion: Make it chargable, I.E. if you spend 1 round charging, AND ARE UNINTERRUPTED FOR THAT ENTIRE POST (meaning you aren't hit by anything, ki blasts and punches included) you can gain a second KP at the START of your next post. Now before you go saying that this would be "overpowered" remember that ki blasts and a regular punch will make it so you CAN'T. This would aid in letting the battles go a bit faster while still making it difficult to keep up KP as most seem to prefer.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Nov 9, 2015 21:18:29 GMT
Hi there Currently there is no injury system but I understand your argument assumes that something akin to a recent suggestion (which I can't find) will be implemented. There is also no HP right now, and we're trying to move away from hard number damage formats and move to a more percentage based system that allows for dynamism during a fight rather than counting PL. PL was never meant to be HP. I'd like to disabuse you of some misinformation. Ki blasts and punches should do real damage to someone as long as they fall within the 80/65 rules of combat. It's very important that players follow these rules and react accordingly, and those who do not are subject to temporary or longterm grading penalties depending on severity. For instance, if Vi-Poi fought Kaile, he would be able to certainly defeat her without using a single technique, as per the 80/65 rules of combat. As for your critique of KP, when I designed the system I wanted to make it very simple and intuitive, with the idea that big techniques such as MP3s and UV3s would be used as scarcely as Goku's Kamehameha or Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon. These are finisher level moves that are supposed to be the fighter's ultimate weapon in their repertoire. I tinkered with the idea of having KP being raised in certain circumstances, such as PL marks, but in my estimate having big fight-ending MP3s being on the rarer and more costly side is a good thing. Before KP, fights were ended in one or two posts, with a constant spamming of MP3s. KP being generated during a charge doesn't make much lore sense to me. After big attacks, fighters were noticeable fatigued. Mechanically, it adds too much value in charging, which in my opinion is already overpowered (and unrealistic) in that it has no cap. In DB* lore you would never see Krillin able to power up for hours and match Buu, but in Souls it is certainly feasible for a much lower PL to charge up to the levels of the site strongest. If anything, I'd argue that charging needs to be downed with the implementation of a max charge cap for the sake of realism and balance, because as of now it gives the absolute advantage in any close fight to who has that one extra player who can just sit back and charge until they have some ridiculous number.
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Post by Kaula on Nov 9, 2015 21:35:28 GMT
I'd like to state this, after searching only one so-called system that was spoken about. It is a year and some change old. I'd like to say that if it was, in fact, implemented.. It would have been so looooong ago.
Anyway, just posting this here so other people understand and look if they missed the cbox. Injuries are not calculated. They are inferred and informed by the 80/65 combat rule. So if person A punched person B as hard as they could, with the intent to KO, it should KO someone if person B is far below the 65% line. And, while punches and ki blasts carry no tech damage, non-tech combat is still governed by the 80/65 rules.
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Mayze
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Post by Mayze on Nov 9, 2015 21:42:10 GMT
Hi there Currently there is no injury system but I understand your argument assumes that something akin to a recent suggestion (which I can't find) will be implemented. There is also no HP right now, and we're trying to move away from hard number damage formats and move to a more percentage based system that allows for dynamism during a fight rather than counting PL. PL was never meant to be HP. I'd like to disabuse you of some misinformation. Ki blasts and punches should do real damage to someone as long as they fall within the 80/65 rules of combat. It's very important that players follow these rules and react accordingly, and those who do not are subject to temporary or longterm grading penalties depending on severity. For instance, if Vi-Poi fought Kaile, he would be able to certainly defeat her without using a single technique, as per the 80/65 rules of combat. As for your critique of KP, when I designed the system I wanted to make it very simple and intuitive, with the idea that big techniques such as MP3s and UV3s would be used as scarcely as Goku's Kamehameha or Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon. These are finisher level moves that are supposed to be the fighter's ultimate weapon in their repertoire. I tinkered with the idea of having KP being raised in certain circumstances, such as PL marks, but in my estimate having big fight-ending MP3s being on the rarer and more costly side is a good thing. Before KP, fights were ended in one or two posts, with a constant spamming of MP3s. KP being generated during a charge doesn't make much lore sense to me. After big attacks, fighters were noticeable fatigued. Mechanically, it adds too much value in charging, which in my opinion is already overpowered (and unrealistic) in that it has no cap. In DB* lore you would never see Krillin able to power up for hours and match Buu, but in Souls it is certainly feasible for a much lower PL to charge up to the levels of the site strongest. If anything, I'd argue that charging needs to be downed with the implementation of a max charge cap for the sake of realism and balance, because as of now it gives the absolute advantage in any close fight to who has that one extra player who can just sit back and charge until they have some ridiculous number. Agree on the charging bit. Definitely needs to be capped at 300% to 532%(Tribeam)
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Nov 9, 2015 21:42:17 GMT
Before you read the rest of this: Please try to just offer criticism not just straight up negative feedback. If you don't like the idea's but can't think of a way that might improve the idea for later use, just say "I don't think these would be a good idea for X reason" and nothing else, there's no reason to point out every single flaw in all the suggestions without ever even ATTEMPTING to offer potential idea's for improvements. Trying to dictate how people will respond to your suggestion is silly first off, people can express themselves freely as long as it's in a civil manner. You should respect peoples views and trust the moderation and administrative team to handle any and all rowdy and abusive commentary. Now that this has been stated let me provide some input. Firstly, could you link to Shade's post to provide us with context? Secondly, I feel you've been misinformed. As it stands we do not have a dedicated 'injury system' and the '3 hits you're out' limitation is false. I do not know where you heard that from but Combat is mostly freeform, the numbers and power levels behind attacks are more used to determine how much 'oomph' an attack has behind it. This is mostly used so the writers can determine how badly their characters are going to get hurt by the attack. For example in the recent battle between Maeve and Habana: Super Saiyan Habana far outclassed Maeve so even an [N1] had enough power behind it to rip through her. There were no rigid systems in play to determine how much damage I had to take, unless the opposing party's intent is clearly made we're allowed to react to damage how we see fit. This includes punches, kicks, ki blasts, slashes, gunplay, etc. While someone could realistically 'lol dodge' every non tech thrown at them the staff team pays attention to that sort of thing and we react accordingly. PL doesn't need to be instituted as HP because with the 80/65/50 ruling characters can already fill the role of "More experienced and more deadly" fighter as you suggested because as it stands story wise: if someone isn't even in the 65% range their hits aren't going to do much at all (unless the player feels like throwing the weaker player a bone.) Putting so much stock on PL as a solid number would make it so anyone who is slightly higher than the rest of the pack would dominate without question. KP charges already for every turn you don't use a technique on.
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Post by Kaile on Nov 9, 2015 23:08:40 GMT
Trying to dictate how people will respond to your suggestion is silly first off, people can express themselves freely as long as it's in a civil manner. You should respect peoples views and trust the moderation and administrative team to handle any and all rowdy and abusive commentary.
~First off I've done this before and the fucking staff ignored it. The last time I made a suggestion and reported to staff that people were being disrespectful, The fucking staff did nothing so sorry for trying to ensure people realize that they need to be respectful by asking them to only comment what's actually needed not just "Oh this is stupid because you're stupid". Btw, the only thing I asked was for people to be respectful and civil with their comments. Literally all I asked.
Firstly, could you link to Shade's post to provide us with context?
~Shade's post itself has nothing to actually do with the suggestion, it was more me seeing him post in the spoiler that his attack's damage was ranked at 990 PL. It made me think "Well what if this took 990 points of PL off when it hits?"
As it stands we do not have a dedicated 'injury system' and the '3 hits you're out' limitation is false.
~No it's not. After one hit you're at 80%, second hit takes you to 65%, third hit takes you to 25%. AT 25% you're out of the fight because you legit get 1 shot by anything from someone of 2x your current PL which is 25% of your max. It's a 3 hits your out system. At 25% you stand 0 chance of winning. at 60% you stand little to no chance of winning as they can charge their MP3 for 1 post and 1 shot you with it. It's a 3 hits your out system.
This is mostly used so the writers can determine how badly their characters are going to get hurt by the attack.
~It's actually not. From what I've been told you cannot knock anyone down more than 1 injury stage from a single attack unless it's at least 2x their current power level which, at that point, is able to kill them outright if it has that intent.
There were no rigid systems in play to determine how much damage I had to take, unless the opposing party's intent is clearly made we're allowed to react to damage how we see fit.
~So if Kaile got hit by an attack that had 5m PL behind it wiht no intent stated I could state it barely did any damage? No. It'd immediately knock her out as per what LOGIC dictates even for DBZ standards.
While someone could realistically 'lol dodge' every non tech thrown at them the staff team pays attention to that sort of thing and we react accordingly.
~Why was spamming such an issue then? Staff say they penalize people for doing things like that but "have issues" with people spamming. This makes no sense since if you WERE paying attention to them they'd stop doing it since their grading would continue getting penalized and eventually they'd get nothing if not get banned.
KP charges already for every turn you don't use a technique on.
~And that's the ONLY way. You have to do basically nothing but fluff for the round because 90% of all fights are well within 80% of each other's PL simply off the basis of that's how most people fight. The only real exception to this would be DE's, Saga's and/or training/spars.
~As for the 'injury' system, we've seen IN CANON people take well over 6 hits and STILL keep fighting after being hit by BIG attacks such as Galick Gun, Kamehameha, Final Flash, ect. For example; Final Form Cell got hit by Final Flash and kept fighting like he DIDN'T get hit. at all AFTER already having been fighting for a very long time without any breaks. Frieza is another example of being hit by numerous attacks without stopping or slowing down and Goku is a HUGE example of this. However with the current INJURY SYSTEM of 80/65/25 at 65 you stand little to no chance as after 1 post of charging you can be insta-killed and if you don't have any KP, you're fucked completely. This means that after being hit by ONE attack that's equal to your Power Level, you can be one shot. Which makes NO sense. Is it likely? Probably not. But it CAN happen which makes no sense. The "Kamehameha" isn't a "finisher" move, it's Goku's SIGNATURE move. He uses it numerous times throughout fights and 90% of fights are done using Hand-to-Hand combat and that's where the majority of damage actually comes from however as per what I've been told, Punches won't do that much damage and is why I've stated as much. However if they CAN do damage what is the damage they do? What % of your PL in damage can it even inflict? If it does damage it needs a number otherwise I'm only continually led to no damage. If it only does damage if you're greater than X percent of health that's another thing I'd love to actually know as well as how MUCH damage it'll do, what % of your PL is it?
I'd argue that charging needs to be downed with the implementation of a max charge cap for the sake of realism and balance, because as of now it gives the absolute advantage in any close fight to who has that one extra player who can just sit back and charge until they have some ridiculous number.
~Charging? You mean charging attacks? The thing that renders you immobile and open to an attack? Yep totally needs to be reduced. If someone sits there and let's you charge an attack to 500% of their PL you deserve to get hit by it because you LET it get to that. It's the same theory as Cell ALLOWING Vegeta to CHARGE his Final Flash. He LET him do it he didn't even TRY to stop him. My idea makes the KP charge VERY easily interrupted by a simple ki blast. If they move or get hit by it, it fails and they waste the rest of that post and are left open. It isn't overpowered, it isn't too hard to counter, it isn't anything. It's easily countered. The ONLY way it'd be pulled off is if it's ALLOWED to happen, I.E. Everyone elses consent to him getting that extra Ki Point. If you're CONSENTING to allowing it, it's YOUR fault not the system, not theirs, nobodies except yours because you consented to him getting it. And as far as my knowledge goes the KP system will be mandatory after it's installed and can't be 'ignored' except in solo threads. A friend of mine on another site made a good point that if someone is spamming, that ISN'T the honor system that's them being a dick and NOT using the honor system. The honor system relies on all thread participants having knowledge of their characters abilities and knowing that spamming 50 MP3's in a row isn't even possible and thus SHOULD be punished. If the staff truly are monitoring this kinda thing hardcore then this shouldn't be an issue and if it is those people that do it should be getting extremely low gradings if not banned for it. The Honor System is just that, Honor. If you aren't going to fight within reason, you aren't using the honor system. I've used that system all my life and have never heard of any complaints except on this site.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Nov 9, 2015 23:29:26 GMT
The problem with using an honor system Kaile, is that many people have different definitions of what is reasonable. For instance, not so long ago in a non-KP thread I had a player whose opinion I very much respect come to me concerned about my tech usage being overdone. I had a different view because of other people in the thread's energy usage, as well as the type of techniques I was using.
KP settles all those sorts of questions. Also, to go back onto the charge cap -- someone could easily go 5 rounds without being attacked if the other person is tied up dealing with other fighters. That's why there needs to be a cap, besides the canon element which is also huge.
AI'm not sure what you're talking about with the injury system, because there isn't one. Are you offering an injury system? What is it?
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Post by Tania on Nov 9, 2015 23:30:52 GMT
As it stands we do not have a dedicated 'injury system' and the '3 hits you're out' limitation is false. ~No it's not. After one hit you're at 80%, second hit takes you to 65%, third hit takes you to 25%. AT 25% you're out of the fight because you legit get 1 shot by anything from someone of 2x your current PL which is 25% of your max. It's a 3 hits your out system. At 25% you stand 0 chance of winning. at 60% you stand little to no chance of winning as they can charge their MP3 for 1 post and 1 shot you with it. It's a 3 hits your out system. Erm, no. Nicolas is correct on that one. An injury system was discussed a LONG time ago, but it was never officially put into place. For the moment nothing like that actually exists. Sorry for the confusion there. Is there a board that lead you to believe that there was something official that we were using rather than just discussion?
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Post by Maeve Rakshasa on Nov 9, 2015 23:31:26 GMT
Provide your sources
If an attack is well above you and outclasses you it's going to hurt a lot. It's not up to an injury system to determine how your character reacts it's up to you the writer to decide how to act fairly and appropriately when responding to an attack. There doesn't need to be a system in place to hold your hand through damage, this isn't a table top RPG it's a creative endeavor. That's the point I was getting at.
I wasn't on staff before the KP system was implemented so I cannot comment officially. Vi Poi has already stated fights would amount to only who can toss out the most MP3's because it wasn't regulated in any way thus leading to spamming. I speculate: this made it less 'fun' to write and read and made it more like people scumming a video game exploit. In my experience: penalties or not, if someone is trying to 'win' at roleplaying they're gonna do whatever it takes to do so.
The horror, you have to actually fight instead of using hadoken over and over again in the corner. A good player will respond to hits even if there isn't a power level attached them. It's not fluff just cause it doesn't have a number. Just saying.
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Post by Hyoza on Nov 9, 2015 23:37:48 GMT
Kaile, stop being an ass.
Why should anybody take your complaints of other people 'being disrespectful' to you seriously when this is how you respond to any and all criticism?
Also, you're claiming superior knowledge of site mechanics, to staff members. As a former member of the team, I can happily state without any doubts that it's their job to know the system and they discuss its functions daily. several of your arguments are based on misinformation and just blindly claiming that you are right does not, in fact, make it so.
There is no injury system in place, there never was. Non-technique attacks do have a value in combat and should always be respected within the bounds of the 80/65 rules of combat. People seen to be abusing this should be reported to staff so appropriate action can be taken.
As for charging caps, that's something that's actually up for debate, as right now charging is unlimited and can result in some very silly and disappointing battle outcomes, where one group will swarm into a thread, and the lower-tier characters will immediately begin charging their techniques while stronger fighters occupy their foes as more immediate threats.
But overall, I think many would agree that your attitude is the disrespectful one, and that your apparent belief that you have superior knowledge of site mechanics to the actual staff is baffling at best.
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