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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jul 15, 2015 4:34:43 GMT
Many many moons ago, a race was approved on site called the Kagami, a batch of people who're currently slaves on Planet Vegeta with the power to tap into domains of power, based upon their connection to their 'Goddess,' their deity who helps them through hard times. They are able to mimic the appearance of a species, but they are marked by white hair and red eyes, despite the form they take up. Here is the ability, that is being brought up into discussion: Mimic: As their name suggest, they are able to mimic other races, due to this they have a special ability, that allows them to copy 1 move from a single fight. This is not a permanent gain, but instead the move they mimic, can either be used to counteract the attack, or be used as an attack for themselves. (1 time per fight, and can only be used on moves that do damage.) When the race was approved, a needed discussion was to happen. The intent was that this was a technique Kagami could take up in the beginning, for the sacrifice of 1 of the beginning technique slots (detail located in this) to pick up this technique. Problem was, there was not a discussion on this, so it's being displayed now. There is a demonstration of the technique, located in this thread: wodsouls.freeforums.net/thread/1676/wandering-soul-openIt involves Mimikku and @pipa, two members of ours who have been here for a good while now. Pipa, at the time, was fighting with his demonic will (x3 his base) active, with heavy weights on as a drunk. Mimikku was at around 17,445 power level at this time as well. Pipa, in a fit of rage (in character), used his x4 ability to charge at Mimikku for 27,125 power level. Mimikku uses the racial, once a thread ability, to reflect this attack at about x2.6 (roughly) pipa's attack without her x4 transformation being active. This thread was ended without Mimikku not showing she was worn out from the usage of this technique. To my own personal thoughtsI feel as though this ability, considering at the time Pipa and Mimikku were at nearly the same levels, needs to follow that principle. 'The Kagami must be within the 65% threshold of the attack directed at them in order to counter the incoming attack!' However, the cost needs to be higher, for its usage. One of the conditions, as Kagami are highly attuned to their religion, could be that they can't use transformations for the next 5 rounds. On top of this, the user should personally be restricted from combat for the next 3 rounds, as the technique (if learned at character creation) requires high amounts of concentration. This would be meaning that techniques can't be used to evade attacks, and they would have to become subject to whatever punishment comes their way. If they're in a transformation when they use this, even if it is one of the 'permanent' transformations, it results in the form ceasing upon usage (Permanent forms would not be available until such a time). What are your thoughts? Before posting, give yourself an hour to look at everything about this race's mechanics (Click here for the most updated version of the race) and how our current battle mechanics work. What needs to be done? President Bao, Zucceta, Hyoza, Vi-Poi, and Reikiko, if you could convert your attention to this thread, it'd be appreciated!
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Post by Kaula on Jul 15, 2015 4:39:28 GMT
I just want to point out - as per Bao's rules on the racial ability, Mimikku doesn't have Mimic as she never spent a starter tech on it.
Other then that, I like most of it. Granted, I think we should lower the threshold to 55% to make it more feasible, and probably lessen the cooldown.
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Post by Maeve Rakshasa on Jul 15, 2015 4:46:04 GMT
Personally, I feel your proposed downsides outweigh any usefulness of the tech, if it were a free racial then they'd be more acceptable but since they have to give up one of their starting techs while suffering all these downsides is too much. Just having it be required that they are within 65% PL of the attack would be enough IMHO they don't need that restriction with a transformation loss and 3 turns of being a sitting duck while also sacrificing one of their attacks, that's insane.
I say limit the maximum output they can mimic while giving them a one turn recharge time, that seems more fair.
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Post by Mimikku on Jul 15, 2015 4:47:31 GMT
It doesnt matter Kaula this is just like Namekian Regeneration or the Saiyans having to take Oozaru at creation as a tech slot.
But this is to talk about the racial and the power of it. I am personally fine with 55% or 65%. As for damage and all that I had to do a recovery thread after the fact of that thread with Pipa. So i have always maintained some type of counter or cooldown for this ability as i treat it alot like the mastery of Oozaru etc.
And before you come at me with some attack I am the one who brought the technique to Pieter's attention and asked him about its use and some help with clarifying it by opinions.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jul 15, 2015 5:19:39 GMT
Thank you for pointing this out, Mimikku. Where in the original applying language is it stated that this is a PL reflection attack, as is being insinuated here? From what I read of the technique, it just says the user can mimic another person's technique, and mimicry =/= reflection.
Ki attacks are generated by a person's ki, and each fighter has a ki of different magnitude. Krillin might learn Kamehameha, and be able to copy the technique perfectly, but Krillin's Kamehameha will be weaker than SSJ3 Goku's Kamehameha, because SSJ3 Goku's ki is much stronger. As far as a reflection goes, I think it's contra to the lore. Weaker ki yields to the stronger ki. Why should a person be able to reflect ki without having near as much of their own? What are they reflecting the opposing ki with? Their own ki? How is that so, if the opposing ki is much stronger?
If it is indeed a reflection tech, I think it needs to be reformed into a pure mimicry, as the move description suggests -- built with her own ki, with techs based on her own PL and not a digit more.
A reflect would be broken. It could create a situation where in every single 1v1 (or xv1, where the reflector is with the x), regardless of PL, the reflector would always come out on top of the beam struggle, because the reflector can either use its own superior ki, or use the stronger opponent's ki against them. There'd be no recourse for the player who is being reflected -- you can't dodge after a beam struggle.
Even if it were put into a 65% range, that would be a huge advantage. It would guarantee a win in solo fights as long as the reflector was within 65%, as people live and die by 1 tech usage here, and make the reflector invulnerable to all but the most overpowering opponents.
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Mayze
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Post by Mayze on Jul 15, 2015 5:31:22 GMT
I am in agreement with Vipoi here. The only way I can plausibly think of the reflection attack being just as strong is because of the will of the Kagami god. (But I don't think that'll fly around here. :/)
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Post by Kaula on Jul 15, 2015 6:14:30 GMT
Same. And by that logic - they could mimic specials like Kienzan
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Post by Zuni on Jul 15, 2015 6:43:55 GMT
Yeah, the way Vi-Poi explains it is exactly how I thought it was supposed to work when I read it in the past - you get to mimic 1 attack per thread. I thought that actually played nicely into the slave race thing, because it meant that if you were backing up a saiyan with a special attack, you could use the special after they do.
All attack calculations should be performed based on your own PL, though. It doesn't make much sense to me done any other way.
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Post by Mimikku on Jul 15, 2015 7:21:20 GMT
I am perfectly fine with changing the racial to what Vi-Poi has suggested. I rather like its working and all that. The only thing that I would like to find out would be mimicking some specials like the kienzan or kihoho. Would mimicking those be allowed and would the effects of the kihoho incur if it was allowed?
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Post by Reikiko on Jul 15, 2015 8:45:13 GMT
Personally I also vastly prefer Vipoi's 'copy' technique suggestion where the Mimicry is literally a 'copy a technique but with your own personal stats'.
On terms of specials I firmly believe their potential 'negative' effects will obviously apply to you also. No Kikoho-ing without suffering damage, and no 4 rounds charged Kikoho without dying, cause you're pretty much pulling a Kakashi. You're not pulling those techs out of nowhere, you're literally replicating their effects what means the charging, firing and the side-effects of said techniques.
Still a bit of a minor pet peeve at having someone use a special without having properly learned it but... ah well~
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jul 15, 2015 11:59:10 GMT
I think temporary mimicking of specials is fine, personally, but note you wouldn't be able to spend the tech points to gain those techniques permanently. Other techniques, however, I could see mimicry being a gateaway to spending tech points to actually 'learning' those techniques (ala Goku or Buu learning Kamehameha), which I actually find pretty neat.
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Post by Mimikku on Jul 15, 2015 15:43:11 GMT
You know Zucc I like that idea for Mimicry to be something of that gateway to non special technique learning. It would give the race a definitive flavor of its own. And I whole hearted agree with you Rei about the specials having to have if there is a negative effect the effect still goes through. I would like to not to be able to learn specials in that manner as Zucc said as that would be a slippery slope but a one time desperation style activation and firing of the special would be an interesting twist.
Plus it would give any Kagami that are loyal to the SSE a huge advantage being able to mimic the Power Ball technique at a moments notice if they had seen it beforehand in the thread to oozaru additional fighters or something like that. Sorry just kinda thinking of interesting fluff that the mimicry would bring to the site.
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Post by President Bao on Jul 16, 2015 3:12:26 GMT
Vipois interpretation aligns with the interpretation I intended.
Their racial special is that they get to copy a technique they witness, including specials (but not racial abilities, like overdrive or regeneration) for that single thread.
and as noted in the linked thread, anyone can flavor technique acquisition however you like, be it conventional learning and training, accidental discovery, divine intervention, youtube tutorials, or indeed as an extension of your races natural knack for copying.
To give some canon examples, Tien learned crane style techniques from his master, Vegeta learned ki supression from his battle with the Z fighters, Cell gained his technques due to having the genetics of those who knew them, buu learned abilities by absorbing people, etc.
Whatever floats your boat as long as you have the tech slot, apply for it, and then RP the acquisition.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Jul 16, 2015 3:18:00 GMT
Would this also cover demon techniques? Some are so very unique (like mine, for instance), like lasting effects even after threads have ended. I feel as though that may not be plausible for them to be able to do so. It'd get awfully specific about it, but this is a racial we're speaking of.
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Post by Mimikku on Jul 16, 2015 6:07:26 GMT
I think Racial powers are unable to be duplicated except by members of that race of half bloods.
so far what I have gathered from the thread are as follows for the Mimicry Technique::
Specials are the one time use cannot learn techniques
Normal techniques can be learned by the kagami after the thread for a technique slot.
As for the technique just going with how Pieter worded it in just being a full on mimicry of the technique based off the strength of the user would make it the most balanced as it will never be something that just comes out of left field and ends fights and whatnot.
All of these seem fair and balanced to me. Other than the part that Pieter is talking about.
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