Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Jul 8, 2015 14:21:10 GMT
I totally also agree with the removal of the PL penalty, and don't even know what discussion was had about them even being added. If you remove the PL penalty for utility of true form, and make their mid-game a bearable 21x, there's no reason why an ultimate evolution should end higher than 45x.
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Post by Hyoza on Jul 8, 2015 14:33:20 GMT
They make sense, though - it's a reason for Arcosians (like Frieza himself said, he was conserving power because it's hard to control) to conserve their power in lower forms, rather than using True ALL THE TIME. Problem is, because it's fairly punishing, nobody uses it except in desperation.
I actually think this is good and fair.
What ticks me off is when people look at species balance they see that and go 'well their early-game is amazing'. No, no it isn't. Our highest penalty-free xform, is an x5 which we unlock at 10k. Our x8 loses us 25% and our x10 loses us 50%
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 14:33:15 GMT
Depending on what the most prevalent races are, perhaps there should be some work done to incentivize the other races, either a readjusting of their transformation gains, or new racial traits. Something to try and naturally create a more diverse setting, rather than just restrict access to other races.
I also feel like Hybrids could use a little rework as they seem to exclusively focus on the common Saiyan/Human hybrid. Sure, it's said that the transformations are flavored according to the dominant race, but looking at the list it seems to assume a default of Saiyan/Human and I wonder if that doesn't encourage those new players who look at the list to think that that's all they can do.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 8, 2015 15:10:13 GMT
Depending on what the most prevalent races are, perhaps there should be some work done to incentivize the other races, either a readjusting of their transformation gains, or new racial traits. Something to try and naturally create a more diverse setting, rather than just restrict access to other races. I also feel like Hybrids could use a little rework as they seem to exclusively focus on the common Saiyan/Human hybrid. Sure, it's said that the transformations are flavored according to the dominant race, but looking at the list it seems to assume a default of Saiyan/Human and I wonder if that doesn't encourage those new players who look at the list to think that that's all they can do. Incentives are... a bad idea for many reasons, IMO. Here are a few of my favourites! 1) If you're playing for mechanical advantage, you're playing wrong. 2) There's nothing wrong with playing something close to someone else's concept - you just have to be distinct enough to make it interesting. 3) A diverse setting isn't inherently good. This seems a little odd, but the fact is there's a limited playerbase - if you encourage new players towards an area of the game which is empty, they'll get bored and leave. 4) Anything you give too much of a boost for will become overdone very quickly, and usually by people who aren't interested particularly in that concept but more in getting the boost. 5) People should play what they want to play; that's when they get the most out of the game. If people are playing particular races/concepts disproportionately, you want to look at why, not just buff the other races. Most of the time, it isn't a mechanical bonus; saiyans are one of the most popular species, but mechanically they are pretty sub-par before they hit super saiyan (and there's less than a dozen super saiyans around). That's because the saiyan theme, canon background and group of players on vegeta are pretty awesome - IMO - and that's something you can't easily replicate for the other races. Namek, for instance, was written as essentially completely uninvolved in galactic affairs - I suspect that's a large part of the reason there weren't many nameks, the race profile leant itself mostly to the kind of uninterested observers who have a really tough time finding plot hooks. Aside from Namekians, though, I'm struggling to think of any other species which has a notable lack of players. Everyone else has 4-6 active players kicking around, I think, and that's probably a fairly good number for the size of the playerbase.
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Post by Hyoza on Jul 8, 2015 15:40:51 GMT
Brenchians.
We have their frickin homeworlds right there. Nobody plays them.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 8, 2015 15:50:04 GMT
Sure, I meant the 'main' species. Brenchians suffer from the 'alien syndrome' because all the aliens are lumped together in one thread so it makes it tough to think of them as each being equal to the 'main' species.
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Post by Hyoza on Jul 8, 2015 15:57:44 GMT
Doesn't help of course that the current profile for Brenchians has NO unique traits, so they're basically worthless mechanically
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Mayze
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Post by Mayze on Jul 8, 2015 17:24:29 GMT
Speaking of Brenchians, and I know this may sound like a lot of work, but why not make them one of the "main" races? They are a cannon race after all, and it could lead to more interest in them.
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Post by Hyoza on Jul 8, 2015 18:32:40 GMT
They never were a 'main' race though. Jeice, Salza and a bunch of background no-names are the characters we have to draw from for that species.
Contrast that with Saiyans, Humans, Namekians or even Arcosians and we have a lot more important and fleshed out characters to work with.
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Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
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Post by Mayze on Jul 9, 2015 2:00:18 GMT
They weren't, you're right, but we might as well give them some unique characteristics.
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Post by President Bao on Jul 9, 2015 4:02:41 GMT
Zuni is correct that the reasons people chose a specific race are many times separate to their gameplay balance, though I disagree on the theory that namekians are not widely used cause of being a more neutral galactic power. Truth is people just aren't all that keen on the slug-men(even on other dbz rps this is a common trend), when you measure it out the sort of interest groups who would be draw towards a namekian you see that higher gratification of these areas can be drawn from other races. eg. a peaceful and kindly protector could be satisfied in a more 'normal' human, or android a strange and exotic being with unusual physiology could be satisfied by a bio-android, or alien a an iconic dragonball alien who could make for a strong (non-saiyan) warrior could be satisfied by an arcosian a mystical being with magical properties could be satisfied by a demon, or a majin
The aspects of what make a namekian are a specific niche that most prefer to take towards another sort of extreme, though their somewhat 'dull' seeming world in canon also plays its part I suspect.
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As for your comment Zucetta, I'm rather strapped for time, could you do me a favor and search up one of the threads where I already explained the design behind that grade reduction and then share the answers in this thread for you/the others. Sorry about this.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jul 9, 2015 15:48:16 GMT
Zucceta, here is what I could find. There was no vote, as far as I can tell, it was implemented immediately after discussion. ArcosiansThey are the most powerful early game race, but currently most of their forms have no mechanical purpose and they can be a little *too* overpowering in the starter stage. Like all races they have seen some general reductions, though their true form is still the strongest and most accessible starter transformation (not having a moon&tail requirement or other blockers). Brute | x5 | 5000pl - provides +50% pl rate
| Monster | x8 | 20,000pl - provides +25% pl rate
| True | x10 | no required pl
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You may notice that the middle transformations now have small requirements set. Inspired by Kuriza (who appears to only have a first and true form), the idea is that the additional forms frieza had were something he mastered over time, twisted his suppressed form to access more of his full power without breaking out of it completely. They are still superior to anything any other race has at such levels, but it gives a little sense of progression as they train up. You may also notice they list now has them gaining additional pl when in their suppressed forms, much like the training weights people can buy. This ties into their racial traits: Durability | Arcosians are a hardy species, beyond their natural strength they can also take a hit/survive injuries surprisingly well. When activated while receiving an attack, durability makes your pl count as an additional x1 (defensively).
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| Durability(like regen) is on a per thread basis(meaning even if 'used' in one battle, you can use it again in a following battle).
| Reconstructive Surgery
| After reaching 200,000 base pl, an arcosian can 'come back to life' after a saga death/defeat - in a modified body.*
| Difficult Control
| Their true power is hard for them to control - it interferes with their ability to train, meaning they naturally gain less (-50%) from grades. HOWEVER, their suppressive forms mitigate this(as seen above), meaning they can live and indeed train at a more 'comfortable' level.
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* (Despite being based off both Frieza and Coola's meta and cyborg forms, this doesn't have to be a robotic restoration and can indeed be 'flavoured' however the player likes)So the proposal here is that this counter-balance encourages them to only use their true form when they 'have' to, trading away gain bonuses for the large advantage their true form gives them in a fight, making them more sporting and equitable alongside other races. (The 50% is traded from the base rate not their additional mutipliers, so you'd still get the full benefit of weights and/or saga gains even if you use your true form). Here is the discussion thread the above was pulled from: wodsouls.freeforums.net/thread/799/racial-abilities-starter-trans-discussion?page=2So the argument seemed to be making True Form a last ditch move, similar to Android's Overdrive but with different costs.
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Post by Tania on Jul 9, 2015 17:24:27 GMT
I'm not sure about re-balancing things as far as the actual transformation modifiers on Namekians, but I think there might be one major factor involved with them that might be scaring people off and might need to be done away with. In order to hit one of their transformations, they require fusion. I think fusion might be a big intimidation factor here, and for good reason. You basically hit a wall once you get to a certain level and are unable to progress any further unless you convince another player to give up their character. Not only do they have to do this for the Ascended Namekian transformation, but they have to do it again for Mystic Namekian. That means in order to get a single Namekian player to their full potential, we have to sacrifice two other Namekian players. Even if we had people willing to give up their characters to allow another person to progress, we aren't exactly crawling with them to begin with.
It seems like an idea that would be good down on paper because of how we saw it done in the series, but in a forum roleplay where every character has a person who created them and played them up to that point, it doesn't sound appealing in the slightest.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 9, 2015 18:05:03 GMT
I'm not sure about re-balancing things as far as the actual transformation modifiers on Namekians, but I think there might be one major factor involved with them that might be scaring people off and might need to be done away with. In order to hit one of their transformations, they require fusion. I think fusion might be a big intimidation factor here, and for good reason. You basically hit a wall once you get to a certain level and are unable to progress any further unless you convince another player to give up their character. Not only do they have to do this for the Ascended Namekian transformation, but they have to do it again for Mystic Namekian. That means in order to get a single Namekian player to their full potential, we have to sacrifice two other Namekian players. Even if we had people willing to give up their characters to allow another person to progress, we aren't exactly crawling with them to begin with. It seems like an idea that would be good down on paper because of how we saw it done in the series, but in a forum roleplay where every character has a person who created them and played them up to that point, it doesn't sound appealing in the slightest. I agree. I suggested a way around this with an expensive NPC minion who could be sacrificed for the same narrative effect and no additional PL/techniques, preserving the integrity of 'a barrier that needed to be met' and 'a narrative plot point' without needing to sacrifice other players or build up a 'fission' second PC. Bao didn't like this because it gave you all the advantages of your race with no downside. ( )
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Post by Tania on Jul 9, 2015 18:22:54 GMT
I'm not sure about re-balancing things as far as the actual transformation modifiers on Namekians, but I think there might be one major factor involved with them that might be scaring people off and might need to be done away with. In order to hit one of their transformations, they require fusion. I think fusion might be a big intimidation factor here, and for good reason. You basically hit a wall once you get to a certain level and are unable to progress any further unless you convince another player to give up their character. Not only do they have to do this for the Ascended Namekian transformation, but they have to do it again for Mystic Namekian. That means in order to get a single Namekian player to their full potential, we have to sacrifice two other Namekian players. Even if we had people willing to give up their characters to allow another person to progress, we aren't exactly crawling with them to begin with. It seems like an idea that would be good down on paper because of how we saw it done in the series, but in a forum roleplay where every character has a person who created them and played them up to that point, it doesn't sound appealing in the slightest. I agree. I suggested a way around this with an expensive NPC minion who could be sacrificed for the same narrative effect and no additional PL/techniques, preserving the integrity of 'a barrier that needed to be met' and 'a narrative plot point' without needing to sacrifice other players or build up a 'fission' second PC. Bao didn't like this because it gave you all the advantages of your race with no downside. ( ) Except not only do you lose any additional techniques and PL gains that would come from a fusion, but the current 'downside' is 100% unworkable. That doesn't make sense in the slightest. In order for a Namekian to progress you need to lose another Namekian. There's a good chance that the fusion mechanics are making the race too intimidating to play. Why would someone want to make a character, give them a story, and build them up just to either hit a wall, try to convince someone to lose their character all together when it comes time to transform(twice), or completely give up their character and start over just so someone else doesn't have to hit a wall? If people are too intimidated by a mechanic, they aren't going to want to play the race. If we can't get people to play as a Namekian, then the few that DO want to play as them are completely out of luck when trying to keep up with the other races. That in turn makes them no longer wish to play as a Namekian. Thus, the cycle continues. I can't say for certain that this is the biggest reason as to why people don't want to play as them, but it sure as hell doesn't make them look all that great in comparison to every single other race since they're the only ones that require a complete character sacrifice to advance. Bio Android and Majin absorption just have players die as normal since they don't get any of their victim's techniques.
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