Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 26, 2015 3:31:29 GMT
Hello everyone! I'm here to put a discussion item up for review and voting. This has to do with Androids, and their current state as a species. As evident in many discussions and analysis about the species including Androids , Androids Redux, and Revamping Androids 2.0 , there is a reoccurring view that Androids are under-performers. There is also the counter opinion that Overdrive allows them to remain relatively competitive throughout the game. Linked to this, there is debate on the usage and activation Zeni costs of Overdrive. History: From what I can understand (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this history), Androids used to be early risers, with a x8 Overdrive on top of a permanent starting modifier. This 'Strong Early' model would have made Androids follow roughly the same gameplay path as Arcosians and Demons, both who enjoy strong early and early-mid games, but finish in the bottom of the tiers at endgame. In essence, the strong starts of Arcosians and Demons are balanced by poor endgames. The Android was also of this mold, and their strong early game was balanced by a poor endgame. Sometime in late 2014, the Android early game was downed. The x8 Overdrive was lowered to a x3, and their starting tier was removed. As pointed out in Android Redux, this gives them (even with Overdrive active) the worst or one of the worst beginnings in the game. While the Android early game was downed, the poor endgame was never altered to compensate, leaving Androids with one of the worst early games and one of the worst endgames. Interestingly, Androids are the only "n-shaped" species in the game, with low rated starting modifiers and low rated ending modifiers. Proposals to address this have included the bumping up of Overdrive, or the raising of Android early game tier modifier, or the raising of Android endgame modifier, or the creation of an Android Shop that would allow an Android to pay Zeni for +x1 increases to specific Tiers up to a +x3 (among other more flavor/RP-focused purchases). Proponents of these changes argue that the Androids are in need of altering to make them more viable. There is also the countering opinion that Androids are 'feast or famine' and that their Overdrive and high tier rate allows them to compete with most tiers throughout the game. In this line of thinking, there is no big problem with how Androids are set, because while Android tiers are generally low, they have the only stack that lasts the entire game. Poll items explained: A) Implement the Android Shop -- This would simply implement Tao's Android Shop as discussed in his thread, including the Calibration purchase item that would allow for Androids to 'buy up' certain +x1 bonuses on specific Tiers, up to a +x3. B) Give Androids a x2 Starting Permanent and a x5 Overdrive -- This would be a reversion to how Androids began, with a slight softening of the stats. C) Give Androids a x42 endgame modifier -- This would give Androids a decent endgame to compensate for the downing of their early game. D) Change them in some other way -- Vote here if you don't like any of these options, but think that Androids do need to be changed. If you vote this, please reply with your new idea in this thread. E) Don't change them -- Simply put, no change. The Androids remain as they are. Please weigh each option carefully, and review the linked threads before voting. There are good points on all sides of this debate. Thank you!
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Post by Liang on Apr 26, 2015 3:54:58 GMT
I really like the Android shop, but I think the prices need to be increased, at least for Calibration. Considering something here; 1,000 per Calibration with a cap of 3x per transformation available. Alpha stage comes at 50,000 PL. Overdrive stacks with transformations, yeah? Early Game: Starting at 50,000 PL, a Zeni-savvy Android (which most of them will be or should be with the Shop implementation, it will make Zeni a HUGE part of their Species' gameplay) means an X9 permanent transformation at 50,000 PL (Alpha is an x6, +x3 from Calibrations) for 3,000 Zeni which isn't all that difficult to achieve. Consider the ability to stack Overdrive on top of that for an additional x3, making Alpha a potential x12. This would actually make their early game even better than Arcosians and Demons after a brief wait to achieve 50,000. A fully calibrated and then OD'd Alpha, for example, has the same multiplier as a Full-blood Super Saiyan; something that takes said Saiyan an emotional trigger and 100,000 PL to achieve, double what Alpha costs PL-wise for our 'Droid friends. End Game: Their last transformation is a x39. Calibrated for 3,000 Zeni, we have a x42; this is equal to Namekian endgame already, and stronger than the two races that are supposed to be awesome early game, who end at x39; with this idea not only would they dominate early game, but with calibrations alone, they'd be better than the races who are supposed to dominate early game. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! (Billy Mays mode disengaged) Consider we also have Overdrive in play. x42 becomes x45, and now our Android pals are matched with Full-blooded Saiyan endgame. The Calibration feature is a very powerful thing, and while the argument could be made that farming up Zeni to spend 3000 per transformation leaves little time for training, being able to upgrade their transformations when they want to and not by hitting a PL benchmark (which they do, like everyone else) means that for less training, they stay stronger for longer and their tiers last a lot longer as well. Cyborgs: Their discount in the shop should really be replaced with something else. A discount on an already cheap boost to their transformations would make them a powerhouse throughout the majority of their game, making their transformations very easy to upgrade.
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Post by Alaistair on Apr 26, 2015 5:00:34 GMT
I do agree that there does need some sort of variation between the Arcosians, Demons, and Androids. We'll have to look at Arcosians later, to see what unique perk we can give them to make them not so reliant on the Cyber-Arcosian path... But anyway!
The Android shop is the way to go for them to be really unique. However, I'm looking at the calibration and how it can be giving each level up to +(x3)... But the fact you have to earn 54000 zeni to upgrade to +x3 for all levels is a bit hectic, to say the least. So it actually balances out and tells the player, "Make a choice. Go through the painstaking effort for 9000 zeni every level and fall behind or save that 9000 for later and go do power level things."
I like it! The only thing I'm concerned about is that Cyborgs, as Liang put it, would have this be a bit too easy. 10% is a much better number to work with. It still puts down the idea that you need to choose when you wanna calibrate, as you'd have to still be paying somewhere along the lines of 49 thousand zeni... If I am doing the math correctly.
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Post by President Bao on Apr 26, 2015 14:18:44 GMT
Gonna be honest, this subject is growing a little frustrating for me ; Every time people bring up their arguments for it(increasing the strength of androids, demons and arcosians), I explain the factors, statistics and evidence which proves the assertions to be a false dichotomy, and why they are set as they are... and then the thread comes up again a month or so later using the exact same fallacies as it's basis. It would be okay if new reasons in favour of a buff were emerging each time, but so far that hasn't been the case, ('oh man it says x39 there, so UP, must buff nao'), and so I end up largely just repeating myself. *sigh*, well, lets get this groundhog day under way again... >.> Hello everyone! I'm here to put a discussion item up for review and voting.
This has to do with Androids, and their current state as a species. As evident in many discussions and analysis about the species including Androids , Androids Redux, and Revamping Androids 2.0 , there is a reoccurring view that Androids are under-performers. There is also the counter opinion that Overdrive allows them to remain relatively competitive throughout the game. Linked to this, there is debate on the usage and activation Zeni costs of Overdrive. May I request you bring back out that graph which shows how overdrive androids multipliers stack up to every other races multipliers, to help (re)dispel this view you mentioned. A visual is easier than text I think, and I'm guessing you still have the material handy for the last time. History: From what I can understand (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this history), Androids used to be early risers, with a x8 Overdrive on top of a permanent starting modifier. This 'Strong Early' model would have made Androids follow roughly the same gameplay path as Arcosians and Demons, both who enjoy strong early and early-mid games, but finish in the bottom of the tiers at endgame. In essence, the strong starts of Arcosians and Demons are balanced by poor endgames. The Android was also of this mold, and their strong early game was balanced by a poor endgame.
Sometime in late 2014, the Android early game was downed. The x8 Overdrive was lowered to a x3, and their starting tier was removed. As pointed out in Android Redux, this gives them (even with Overdrive active) the worst or one of the worst beginnings in the game. While the Android early game was downed, the poor endgame was never altered to compensate, leaving Androids with one of the worst early games and one of the worst endgames. Interestingly, Androids are the only "n-shaped" species in the game, with low rated starting modifiers and low rated ending modifiers. Tl;DR version: This is incorrect, and I wouldn't let such an oversight have happened anyway cause I'm OCD about stuff like that.Full version: What? Sweet jesus is that what you guys have been thinking went down No way would I let an oversight like that fly, come on now guys give me some credit. I do atleast like to *think* I know a thing or two about fairness and keeping things in balance. (no corrections on this Pieter? You may not have been as long as I but you were there for all this too, you surely remember the real story)
Episode 2: The ripping yarn of Androids as they currently are:
So not only do they have very competitive multipliers, a durability trait, and a x3 trump card which they can access whenever they like, they are also unkillable - and yet people still bellyache about them being hard done by ... I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm being a little abrasive but they're really not, and I don't understand why this keeps being ignored every time this discussion remerges. I'm a little stunned people have not seemed to consider such vital factors as even being relevant , these are very very major parts of the race, and are not *that* obtuse. Our good man vi here is even actively proving just how dangerous an influential android could be if they choose, and he's still quite passive. Proposals to address this have included the bumping up of Overdrive, or the raising of Android early game tier modifier, or the raising of Android endgame modifier, or the creation of an Android Shop that would allow an Android to pay Zeni for +x1 increases to specific Tiers up to a +x3 (among other more flavor/RP-focused purchases).
Proponents of these changes argue that the Androids are in need of altering to make them more viable.
There is also the countering opinion that Androids are 'feast or famine' and that their Overdrive and high tier rate allows them to compete with most tiers throughout the game. In this line of thinking, there is no big problem with how Androids are set, because while Android tiers are generally low, they have the only stack that lasts the entire game. The fact they are so popular indicates not only are they viable, but also desirable. Their abilities are undeniably powerful and useful and their multipliers always at/above pace. This is infact an issue with bio-androids currently, whose early multiplier needs tweaking downward, due to their clear desirability and unparalleled utility. a permanent x3 multiplier addition would not be fair, the whole point of overdrive is it's ongoing cost, this inherant debt that comes with securing superiority in battle. The whole reason you guys are proposing ways around it is c ause it is such an effective tradeoff , you're absolutely *itching* for that extra power all the time, but you also know that will come at a cost if you do currently, and this causes the agonising over the 'should I, or shouldn't I' decision. That is a good thing, that means it's a compelling dynamic and well balanced, no single choice is the dominant strategy. Overdrive is not meant to be used frivolously, it's a 'sometimes food', an ace card for battles whose value exceeds the cost you know you'll pay, battles which victory is *worth* the usage cost to you personally. This whole 'tough decision' aspect is part of it's compulsion loop and makes the race interesting rather than always falling on to a single decision. ------ Please guys, I know it's a little long but read everything I've said(if for nothing more than a history lesson to debunk some rumours), very carefully consider your votes as something this major is going to have substantial effects, balance is a tricky card pyramid to manage. Gonna be honest, my impression is that(given the poll options above) you're playing with acid here... we'll see how long until the scars develop.
re Store: I'm not against race-specific store items mind you, infact that is already the case as android's Reconstruction and (Overdrive's) Maintenance are already two 'android-specific items', there's discussion value in that. Having taken a very very brief look at the store however.... I can see some stuff which is similar to planned future content I've drafted, some stuff which is fine, most stuff which is unneeded extra complexity, and other stuff which will unfortunately not fly.
Somehow I managed to miss that thread, but weekend is over so I'll have to try and reply to things as I get a chance about the stuff directly above, but also just generally to add my 2 cents to the 'race-specific items' topic.
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Post by Cipher 24 on Apr 26, 2015 14:25:01 GMT
Personally, I'm all for the android shop. The whole need on zeni for the androids gives them a unique play style. It also makes android players work more as they not only need the PL level for the transformation, but also need to pay for the transformation itself, plus the 3,000 to get the calibration per level, PLUS to get Overdrive it costs 2000 zeni. So, to get the most out of a first level transformation would be 5,500 zeni (assuming the cost for the transformation itself is 500). I do also like the new mechanic for Overdrive. It says in the description that it would need to be repaired if used for too long, but there wasn't any definite rules for it.
I do share the sentiments about the cyborg's discount as well, especially since cyborgs get a racial trait of another race. A cyborg human can easily take the zeni bonus ability, and easily build up the zeni required for the transformations. 10% would be a bit better.
Plus the ability to buy techs, leaving actual tech slots free for other things is a nice twist as well.
So yeah, totally for the shop. It gives the androids a stronger early, mid and late game, but makes the players work harder to get it.
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 26, 2015 20:05:15 GMT
President Bao, thank you for responding. I understand this can be frustrating for you, as you believe that Androids are perfectly balanced and this keeps popping up to upset that balance you see, and it's not that I'm not listening to or understanding your points, it's just that I don't really agree with them. I will respond point by point and try to explain why. On Android Progression: Thanks for correcting my history of this. I was not there for it. One of the things I don't think is really addressed by you is that Android progression really is n-shaped, and they're the only species that has that type of progression. It's not so much because they have a great middle -- even with Overdrive, they only match SSJ2 and later Bio-Android -- it's because they have a competitive middle, and a very poor start and ending. I know you know a lot about game balance, a lot more than me I'm certain, but you haven't explained why this progression shape is balanced. Saying that you'd make sure it wasn't imbalanced is not the same as explaining why it's not imbalanced. On Android's Reconstruction:I disagree that this is a major advantage. Not being able to access the Afterlife for certain powers and benefits that will become available could leave Androids at an even greater disadvantage moving into the future. I'd personally be happy to RP in AL, as well. On Android's Multipliers, Durability, and OverdriveHere again I disagree that Android base multipliers are very competive. The Android Species is not so popular. Far from it. I can think of two or three other active Androids besides myself, and when I joined, I was the only active Android, with Kojima cbox lurking but not really posting. Are you seeing a lot move through character creation? Do they have a high quit rate after joining? That could be another indication that they are under-powered. At every Tier save for 2 they are at the very lowest Tier. At no point are they at the highest multiplier in tier. They have the lowest 'On Top' multiplier score of all Species, a 1 shot span from 220k PL - 230k PL before they're matched by Demons then overshot by others. How are those items very competitive or "always at/above pace"? As Tao pointed out, the Durability trait as a one-time use defensive x1 is increasingly useless as the game progresses. At the end game it would represent a +2.5% buff to defense for 1 round, which would be a drop in the bucket due to how our combat is calculated. Overdrive is not an ace in the hole. It's a stack with proportionally diminishing returns that has a big Zeni cost tied to it. At no point does it guarantee victory against a PL peer, nor secure superiority in battle, as you suggest. It is often required for Androids to remain competitive and match peer Tiers throughout most of the game due to their poor base Tiers. At no point in the game does an Overdrive stack push Androids beyond a +x4 transformation advantage against the -lowest- Species of each Tier save for the x31 > x34, where some Species that enjoy excellent endgames like Humans, Hybrids, Alien A, and Saiyans, experience a purposeful gulf in the 30ish multiplier. It is not so much Androids anguishing over not being able to 'feast' all of the time, it is them weighing the high Zeni cost of Androids being competitive against getting their butts kicked in a fight. Further, as the polls and threads show, Androids are not the only ones calling for a fix to the Species. This isn't a selfish act, these are experienced players -- many of them not Androids -- looking at the structure of the Species compared to the others and deciding it is under-performing. I believe that we should work with the numbers compared to other Species in this debate, because our perceptions of how the Species performs are divergent.
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Ryo
Rising Soul
PL: 39,366; Spiritual Will(x3): 118,098; Items: One-Use SpacePod, Heavy Weights (1/4 of PL), Senzu Bean; Zeni: 297
Tag: @ryo
Posts: 110
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Post by Ryo on Apr 26, 2015 21:52:21 GMT
I'll support this, but I feel like if anyone else tried to do this for any other race, it'd have gotten shut down immediately. X3
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Post by Hyoza on Apr 26, 2015 22:43:39 GMT
Well people who didn't want to pull out a contrived explanation as to why their Arcosian got reconstructed (just like all the other ones) have made a little headway, too.
Tbh I've never really been a fan of the species trans balancing overall when it comes to endgame. I get that everyone waxes and wanes in power, but at endgame (when it ends and there's nowhere further to go but increasing your base PL), you're basically boned unless you picked one of a few races, notably humans.
I always thought all races having a final trans that was pretty much equal to all others at the end would be a good incentive for players not to start dropping out when the first humans hit final trans. races who enjoyed good early-mid game could simply unlock their final transes later, so they have to work longer to get them.
But then, I cba with all the number-crunching so what do I know?
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Post by President Bao on Apr 27, 2015 5:10:39 GMT
Will need to be a brief reply:
Nono, that's not what is frustrating and that's not what I think, I love to have discussions on these matters and enjoy debating with people about the merits and such of a given design, it makes a better design solution when you need to create a case to support your assertions and, just like the scientific method, allow it to stand by these merits. The frustrating part is that happens, and then instead of bringing new angles or evidence and progressing the discussion forward, it just digs back up the first assertion again.
I'll address your android progression comment when I get a chance(hopefully tonight, or tommorow, thing are a little busy at work this week). Not to nag but you do still have those graphs and data from last time, right? Would definitely appreciate the help, I'd do it up myself but I currently don't have the complete data set input in a useable format.
Reconstruction is intended to be a choice, since we count all forms of mechanically enhanced beings (including cyborgs and people who use battle jackets) under 'android', there isn't any ruling that they can't go to the afterlife.
But I gotta run, sorry if my brief response is a pain, time is short for me currently.
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Post by Kayle on May 30, 2015 23:49:52 GMT
I don't know if this is still open for discussion of not, but I had something on koramund's idea that I was fumbling around with in my head before I even knew this thread existed. Maybe, instead of nullifying techs of other people (N1=0% etc) maybe it would act as a build in barrier technique. As it, you "absorb" 33% of your own PL of a tech for free if not caught off guard. Like a Ki Barrier, but not having to use the tech. I think it would make it more balanced over all.
Maybe if the Ki Pool system that is being thrown around is being implemented, it could add a charge too? I don't know about that, but it's something to make it a little different than just a tech for free.
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Post by President Bao on May 31, 2015 3:34:13 GMT
I have moved Kayles above post from here to here, as this is the more recent and relevant thread on the matter. It also appears that my last post from here is missing? I noted that despite not being given the data/graphs I requested (*shame, shaaaaaame. shaaaaame the vi-poi for ignoring my plea, public shame, very dishonour on android family, so much shame*) I went out and reconstructed the data from scratch (cold and alone... no vi-poi to hold me... only tears) so that I now once again have in usable form the graphics of race progression. (Full set of analytics here, showing the rundown of every race in the game: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SR68ywRy3LAjWQBPE8UkTAuoAr2hRfm7HjXhCAiwnkI/edit?usp=sharing it would be too large to post images of them all here, and not entirely on topic. Comments are present on sheet one to explain some things, viewers can also comment I believe) As we can see, despite the comments people make about androids being underpowered, the data demonstrates this is not the case. Their overdrive gives them permanent residence within the top percentile, and their base form sits firmly in the middle/high-middle of the distribution curve for 90% of the game. The structure of this graph demonstrates that very early game and very late game are the two places where a rival race sits notably above them, and in this case the two late game races are Humans and Alien A (who are specifically designed to be late bloomers.), Very early game is more reasonably designed as a weak point, it's highest values come from Arcosians(the early game king) and the environmental transformers actual values (Saiyans, Hybrids, and Alien C). During this stage androids have overdrive accessible, but the cost acts as a disincentive meaning that overall they trade accessibility of form[no environmental/situational trigger, and they do actually have a form unlike some at this stage] for a grade demerit [in the form of a repair cost] - telling them pre-alpha isn't their time yet to bully and to instead collect battle data and act with their head not their heart. Additionally keep in mind their other tools - their reconstruction meaning even if they join a saga the very 'worst' they face is a repair job(making overdrive more about pride, 'is this person worth unleashing my power on'), unsensability to help them hide or escape or observe battle, and their durability which can help them negate damage. Mechanically they are sturdy and reliable through the game (much like their in-story context would lead you to believe) with a nice regular progression schedule and the option to bump into gear whenever they want to lay a smackdown.
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Post by Zuni on May 31, 2015 7:26:28 GMT
Oh yeah, I made a spreadsheet to show the 'average' level of the races and was very confused about why people thought Androids were weak.
They ain't. If anything, I think Androids have a huge number of bonuses compared to everyone else. Their Overdrive gives them the most amount of slots where they are actually the most powerful no holds barred, and they are always above average until the very end. If you've got a 2000 zeni buffer and you're not at the 500k tier yet, you are jawesome as an Android. At 500k you are merely rocking cool.
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Post by Kayle on May 31, 2015 7:30:26 GMT
I don't think they are weak. I am just interested in an energy absorb model. I don't think the idea I posted about it is to OP either.
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Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
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Post by Vi-Poi on Jun 5, 2015 19:08:35 GMT
Hey everyone I never got around to it because I haven't had the time for the site that I did prior due to a hellish work environment. Very neat looking graph Bao. Some of those numbers are a bit misleading though -- Majins for instance are way undervalued in the graph due to the absence of a +5 'max absorb' model. Some of the lines below the Android base are also misleading because they are values represented by-in-large by the Arcosians, Alien B, and their mechanizations, and no-absorb Majin offense, making it appear visually that base Android running in the middle when they are not. If you look at it by-the-numbers, the Android does not rate in the middle to high with their base. I'm not sure what numbers you're using to come to this conclusion or if you're just eyeballing the misleading graph, and I'd like to see the calculations, because ordinally the unstacked Android does not at all fit in the middle or high percentiles. To use as an example, Androids base compared to every transformation milestone available to the non-Majin races (taking them out and their misleading perm absorb). Alien C and Alien B were also excluded because they weren't in my initial tableset and frankly, there is only 1 player of Alien C and 0 of Alien B. 0 PL = Android at x0, tied with Saiyan for 8th (last) place. 8/8, bottom of the barrel. 20k PL = Android at x0, tied with Saiyan for 8th (last) place. 8/8 again. 50k PL = Android at x6, for the next 20,000 PL is in 3rd place. 3/6, Androids at 50th percentile. 70k PL = Androids tied with Alien A and Humans for 4th place. 4/7, Androids sink back into bad territory here, if we're saying below 50% is bad. 100k PL = Androids in 4th place. 4/7, Androids in the same area as before. 120k PL = Androids in 5th place. 5/8, Androids sink further. 140k PL = Androids in 7th place. 7/9, with big transformations coming out while they're still at x9. 150k PL = Androids tied for 2nd with Humans. Demons and Namekians tied for 1st. 2/5 175k PL = Androids and Humans tied for 3rd. Demons, Namekians, Hybrids tied for 1st, Saiyans in 2nd. 3/5 200k PL = Androids tied with Humans for next-to-last, 3rd. 3/4 220k PL = Androids tied with Humans and Arcosians for second to last again, 4/5. 230k PL = Androids get into 1st place for the only time in the game, for a wopping 10k PL 1/5 (Note that at no point prior to this moment, did the Androids climb higher than the 60th percentile of transformations, and only at one point climbed to that percentile above 50%, and retained an average of 34%.)240k PL = Androids tied with Demons for 1st place, 1/6 250k PL = Androids tied with Demons, Arcosians, and Alien A for 3rd, 3/5. 275k PL = Androids tied with Demons, Arcosians for 5th and 2nd-to-last place, only ahead of anemic Namekian who is witnessing a brief dry spell. 5/6 300k PL = Androids move to 2nd place. This is their strong middle period. 2/6 330k PL = Androids bump down to 3rd place. 3/7. 385k PL = Androids move down to 4th place. 4/7 400k PL = Androids tied with demon for 3rd place. 3/5. Their final transform. 425k PL = Androids remain tied in 3rd place. 3/5 450k PL = Androids, Demons, and Arcosians settle into 5th place, 2nd-to-last place, 5/6. 460k PL = Androids remain with Demons and Arcosians in 5th, or 2nd-to-last. Alien A x42->x48 makes the ranking go to 6/7. 500k PL = Androids, Arcosians, and Demons find themselves at the bottom, for what could be the longest stretch of the game. 6/6. Base Androids average in at 36% when taken all of the values in the modifier data set. This is not middle or high middle by any definition of the word, and saying so is mistaking or confusing the data. I hope we can move past saying that Androids rank in the middle or high when not in Overdrive now, because mathematically they do not. The Majin are a wildcard that throws the Android numbers even lower. A max absorbed Majin is, in my opinion, broken. The Overdroid does operate a lot better, but keep in mind that every single competitive use of the Overdrive now costs 1000 Zeni. Much of the time, especially in early-middle and endgame, the Overdrive is a requirement to remain competitive and is by no means beating all the tiers. You might all say "well, that's not that much" but for the average player it's around 1500 written words each and every time they want to be able to compete. For ten competitive fights, we're at 15,000 WC, or around 23,000 PL progression sacrificed just so they can fight. That's quite a lot of lost-PL cost because WC had to be devoted to maintaining competitiveness.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 5, 2015 19:24:31 GMT
No offence, Vi-Poi, but I think you're misconstruing things here.
WITH the Overdrive Bonus, at no point do Androids sink below the average of available transformations until the very, very end at 500k. It costs 1000 zeni, yes, but that is one training thread a week at what (according to the mooted max training wordcount rules) is less than half of one average session (20,000 max. wordcount = 4000 words per average thread).
So long as you have 2000 zeni banked, you're not just competitive, you don't fear death. Furthermore, at 100k-200k, and 300k-350k, you aren't just competitive - you've got the highest multiplier of any available species, and still don't fear death.
No other race at all even has the possibility of staying above average from 1000-450,000 PL. Androids do. Sure, without overdrive they are merely in the same boat as Demons, trading their once-per-thread+x4 attack in exchange for the ability to not die at will. You can argue about which comes up more often for sure. But with Overdrive, even with a zeni tax, Androids have a significant advantage over any other race all the way through to 500k. Especially as they don't HAVE to use Overdrive at several points in their cycle, but if they do, they become the strongest there is.
Once you've got that 2000k in the bank - which really doesn't take that long - you're golden until you use it... and then you can just get it back in two, MAYBE three training threads or a social thread depending on your preference. Sure, it is slowing them a little - but compare the upside to anyone else's power progression and it is a clear win for Team Robo.
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