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Post by Zuni on Feb 2, 2016 17:00:50 GMT
With the new 'revealed' secret transformations incorporated into the base trees, hybrids get left a little out in the cold.
The halfbreed transformation line is pretty clearly based on the saiyan transformation line with the exception that it is a touch weaker in most places for the benefits of: added freedom to flavour your character how you like, an extra (weaker) racial perk and getting to master (but not unlock) the x25 25,000 pl earlier than their purebreed cousins and their x45 50,000 pl earlier at the very end game.
With the choice between a x6 early game or a x22 middle game, though, saiyans now have the ability to get a much better early game or a nicer break in the middle than their halfbreed contemporaries - who were already suffering (mildly) from a one-multiplier-ding on the early tiers.
I'm gonna suggest that it would be nice if halfbreeds get a x27 when they 'master' their x25 at-will transformation. I don't think this would break anything, but it would be a neat little boost to them, and give them a period where they are actually ahead of their pureblood cousins for a decent length of time - even if it isn't by much.
I'd be interested in hearing other ideas to balance out hybrids a bit too, but right now I feel like the saiyan journey is just an indisputably easier one because they've been given tools to smooth out either the start or the middle, where hybrids had pretty much the same progression and got nothing.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 2, 2016 22:38:51 GMT
Hybrids are fine in my opinion and it's always better to down something when two things are imbalanced than to up something to try to bring them closer together, due to the multitude of other things not considered that each thing has to balance with. FSSJ and Goldzaru may have been a bridge-too-far with Saiyans -- they were already in a good position, were a popular species, and were turned from being the 'good base' on the site to being pretty much the best species in many ways. That's the only reason Hybrids are looking poor by comparison -- they're still very popular, and very high averagers (like Saiyans used to be). If we start upping Hybrids in response to the Saiyan upping, we're going to have to look at another realignment of all the races.
I'd be more in favor of taking a look at what to remove from Saiyans to bring them back to a more normal progression inline with the other Species. As it stands Saiyans have access to 8 transformations, the most Tiering in the game. They have the highest average, among the highest end game, the highest start game (if they take FSSJ very early), the highest environmental transformations, a UC that lends to their progression combined with some very good tier positions that means they never experience a lengthy progression desert anyway.
I have changed my mind on their recent developments and think that we ran into over-design problems with them, because they were the stars of the manga and the show, we figured 'well the show had this, why don't we?' and that isn't any way to strike a good balance with the species. Of course there will be more neat things Saiyans had, because they were the hero species of DBZ. But we have to temper that with keeping them inline with other species.
So I think we should probably look to downing Saiyans, rather than upping Hybrids, because in my view upping Hybrids to make them more equal with Saiyans will create two problem species in relation to the others.
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Post by Defrosch on Feb 3, 2016 5:20:10 GMT
Heyo, I've got some idea on what to do, thats a bit of both. Might be a bit unfair but here we go.
To keep hybrids that don't have Saiyan genes on par with those that do, perhaps they could get their own 'version' of FSSJ? The requirements would likely be somewhat similar in needing a saga defeat in the early game.
Also, Saiyan Hybrid's FSSJ's could be bumped up to x7 (along with the proposed other Hybrids having the same), in line with their SSJ being -x1, at x11 instead of x12 like a fullblooded Saiyan.
As for the balancing of Saiyans themselves, perhaps Super Oozaru could lock them out of SSJ2, as S.Oozaru is obtained earlier through other (albiet more specific) means. That being said the situational nature of S.Oozaru is quite harsh in and of itself, so perhaps in this case, if a Saiyan takes S.Ooz, their SSJ3 modifier is changed, and named SSJ2?
I dunno, I'm no Saiyanologist.
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Post by Bing Gan on Feb 3, 2016 5:24:00 GMT
I was under the assumption that Saiyan Hybrids already got FSSJ and SSJOozaru? Unless this discussion is about hybrids in general that is; I didn't actually read everyone's posts
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Post by Zuni on Feb 3, 2016 6:37:47 GMT
This thread is about hybrids in general.
There is no earthly reason why saiyan hybrids should get more transformations than other types of hybrid. Hybrid has always been its own transformation tree, and splitting that out just makes it nakedly disadvantageous to play anything other than a saiyan hybrid.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 3, 2016 7:12:43 GMT
I agree it's bad form to have 2 different types of Hybrids, but I also think the best solution could be just to revert Saiyans back to how they were.
Most of the other species tiers changes save for Arcosians weren't really solid uppings, they were filling in question marks (like B/A's Chystalis and Namekian progression) and upping the the bottom tiers by +x1 so they aren't the only ones falling out of 80% competitiveness by the endgame.
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Post by Zuni on Feb 3, 2016 7:28:25 GMT
I don't know - it is difficult. I wouldn't want to remove SSJ Oozaru particularly because that got a major front-and-centre roll in a recent saga.
FSSJ? Yeah I can take or leave that.
The suggestion of it replacing SSJ2 isn't necessarily a bad one, but that does mean a long period of time without anything better. I'd suggest that if you take SSJ Oozaru you lose SSJ2 until 325k instead; where most people are mastering it, you only just manage to unlock it, in exchange for the slightly better early game.
I do see your point about the difficulty in boosting things, Vi... on the other hand, I don't feel like most of the other races are actually badly off compared with saiyans. The three that I would point at as really sucking (IMO) are halfbreeds, demons, namekians and alien b. Note, this doesn't mean that they are unplayable by any means - heck, I have a halfbreed and a demon myself, and I don't feel too hard done by - but saiyans, acrosians (better than demons in the endgame, better than everyone at the beginning, faster leveling tools!!) and androids (dat x31 and overdrive) remain - to me at least - preeeetty clearly the 'better' choices from a power perspective.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 3, 2016 8:02:52 GMT
That's an interesting idea for Goldzaru you have that deserves a second look. I'll try to put it into the big change-forecast thing I'm making for all of us on the species. However, I think if you like the Android's x31, you should for sure like Namekian's x32 they get at the same time. Namekian's low point is their x20, and the fact that they never get an SSJ tier around 100k. That's fine in my opinion, because they're one of the very strong starters with unique starting option UCs in the form of the 3 clans (1 of which is getting a really nifty boost as we speak). They probably could live to finish a little better, but they have a very strong beginning, a strong late game, and a not-meh endgame. But to head back to Hybrid, I think they're one of the very strongest races in a lot of ways, and it will be easier to down Saiyans than to bring Hybrids up to Saiyan level, which is quite easily the best species in the game tier-wise by a mile right now, with 8 tiers and each one strong with short gulfs in between. There have been some good solutions offered, but I'd rather see something like you're recommending balancing it out rather than modifying Hybrids.
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Post by Zuni on Feb 3, 2016 8:18:58 GMT
I'mma avoid going into androids even more because that is tangential to this discussion. Suffice to say, I feel androids/namekians transformations are not a fair comparison.
Even if saiyans lost their new transformations, though, they're still just plain stronger than the hybrids at all tiers, with the fact mildly balanced out by a 25k earlier 'mastery' of the x25 (not even activating the base trans earlier, just getting to use it at will earlier) and their x45 50k earlier... if they never get a x40 at all. If they do, they are forever locked into that -1x compared with the pureblood master race.
I understand your concern, but I really don't think a very slight buff to the SSJ2-tier transformation (which is the 'iconic' halfbreed tier IMO) would be out of line to give them a tiny little peak where they slightly edge out their competition. I definitely don't see them as one of the strongest choices because there are very few areas where they aren't just straight up beaten out by multiple other species - and they are always beaten by one of them. This is marginally offset by the customizable unique characteristics, but most of them are seriously whacky in actual effect too.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 3, 2016 18:07:10 GMT
Here's a way to strike a balance that would be in my opinion good for all:
- Remove FSSJ entirely.
- Allow for Goldzaru with your SSJ2 325k lag time idea. Goldzaru would be Saiyan-only, no Hybrids.
- Bring Hybrid SSJ2 at 240,000 , and put it up to a x26.
This would give reciprocity to the weaker SSJ moment they get, and be more-inline with Gohan being described as stronger and able to access the SSJ2 transformation first because he was a hybrid.
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Post by Zuni on Feb 3, 2016 18:20:46 GMT
I'd be very happy with that compromise, personally.
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Post by Bing Gan on Feb 3, 2016 23:40:48 GMT
Aww man! I really liked FSSJ from a story standpoint. Perhaps there's some way we can still keep it around? Like just as flavoring of Hidden Potential, or when you first unlock SSJ it could look more like FSSJ the first few times?
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Post by Defrosch on Feb 4, 2016 3:16:38 GMT
How about this; if FSSJ is taken, SSJ has a penalty of needing 115,000 PL to achieve, since that character has already unleashed some of the inner strength for transformation, their body/spirit needs time to adjust.
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Post by Zucceta on Feb 4, 2016 4:43:18 GMT
I say, rather than removing bring FSSj in line with the hybrid 4x (or 3x) as, like the hybrid trans, it requires lack of a tail. I'm for it being 4x due to extra reqs.
For some reason I thought (before my assessments today) that hybrid ssj2 was already a 26x, so I agree with the idea of upping it and allowing it slightly earlier.
I'm not a huge fan of making saiyans forced to wait for 325k for ssj2 given its requirement, though. I'd rather nerf the G.Ooza multipliers (and, somewhat tangentially related, make ALL Oozarus/G.Oozas who trigger off of a Power Ball have the -x2 weaker multipliers than just the Power Ball user).
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