Koramund
Archived
PL: 121,168
Bio Metabolize(x3)
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Shoki: 7,708
Tag: @koramund
OOC Name: Saiyan, Namekian, Human
Posts: 694
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Post by Koramund on Jan 31, 2016 2:05:26 GMT
This is a personal issue with me, but for others it may seem fine.
For me, I find that generating Shoki is a excruciating punishment because of the lack of people in the AL. I have only been in ONE open thread the entire time I have been in my two visits to the AL, so most of my Shoki came from Solos. That's where I believe a issue pops up.
There is no reason to stay because depending on who you are, you can only get One bonus for being in the AL. Bonuses for Hell/Evil Character - Ensenji Fruit (One time Bonus) Bonuses for Hell/Neutral Character - Bezelbub Training (Kaioken variant) Bonuses for Heaven - King Kai's Training (Kaioken) Bonuses for AL in general - Bonuses to gradings
From my experience, Hell and Heaven feel like a punishment of "Write this many words before you can get out of your cage and interact with the world." For me, its the worst part of the site. Shoki can only be spent on three things, one of which can not be purchased by Evil characters. You can be trained, get out of the AL, or get a body. With Zeni you can get tens of things all of which give ya boosts as long as you can afford them and use them properly.
Shoki is so useless compared to any other resource, that you gain a bonus 50% of it as PL without any modifiers. This is a walk around the underlining issue to me. Shoki is just a PUNISHMENT currency. Dying should have a punishment, but this hard of a punishment is a turn off! The raw amounts of words I need to write in estimate is 25,000!
Here is a rough estimate of my rewards for those same 25K if I wanted just pure PL. 17,000 PL, or 8,000 PL? I want the higher one, because that's without a Good sized modifier. If it was Zeni, then I could purchase a MAX Gravity Chamber and a level 2 House and have some Zeni left over!
For me, the AL is a terrible place to be. You see everyone else and their events, DEs and Sagas and you want to join and hang out and have a good time. You joined a RP, why don't you ENJOY That RP? I just want to RP my guy, but when I am forced to write and write and write for the RIGHT to play with my friends? I love the community, everyone is helpful and have unique characters! I love trying to work dialogue, but I am terrified of every DE I get in because in my mind its either I get something (for me specifically, a Transformation), or I am forced to death march write a massive number of words. For everyone else, it won't be as high as mine. I have died twice, but the sheer number presented to me fills me with dread.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Kaula on Jan 31, 2016 2:16:41 GMT
Stop dying?
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Post by Kizuki on Jan 31, 2016 2:26:01 GMT
While I can't really relate because this is only my first DE, I get what you're saying. Though, I think the AL adds another great aspect to Souls, whereas some places that I've played in my past death is .. well .. pretty permanent.
The possibility of dying is always there in a DE (it's .. in the name), but the fact is you willingly put yourself there. No one is forcing you to roll the dice and see if you survive. I understand that, personally, your characters evolution is DE dependent, but again, that is the path you chose to take. The open DE itself gives bonuses, survive or die, so it's attractive to the players who want great bonuses when it's done. But, there is the risk involved in it.
The "payment" for coming back to the living world, I feel, is fair enough. It puts things into perspective for the next time you're alive and a DE rolls around, in my opinion.
Also, I think the last time you were dead, threads were backed up in the T2G section for nearly a month. More people are on staff now and it's not the case. The section barely gets to 2 pages before the graders wipe them out completely. You would probably be dead for an estimated few weeks, or really, as long as you wanted to be dead, at the moment. 25k words can be done with some decent work and thought, and everyone here is willing to help throw ideas around if someone is in need of it.
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Bing Gan
Administrator
PL: 374,871
Enlightenment (x16P), S. Ascension (x23)
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OOC Name: Bing/Biggums/TruetoCaesar
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Post by Bing Gan on Jan 31, 2016 2:29:35 GMT
That's sort of the point, Koramund.
The Afterlife is supposed to be a punishment for death. Without the existence of the AL, you wouldn't even be able to play your character at all after the first death. I believe Rev expressed interest in originally making death permanent aside from a DB Wish, but decided against it.
The only reason it's boring in the After Life is because not many players are dead at the same time. If more players were dead at the same moment, it'd be less of a slog. There's no real way to fix that unless we employ AL NPCs that anyone can play, but that seems a bit silly to me.
As it stands, death is a revolving door; it's just a lot harder to push each time through.
(Personally, I would probably drop most characters after death three. If they've been slain that many times, their story is probably over (speaking generally anyways. Some characters might actually gain a lot plot-wise from dying so many times))
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
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Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
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Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Jan 31, 2016 2:50:57 GMT
This is a personal issue with me, but for others it may seem fine. For me, I find that generating Shoki is a excruciating punishment because of the lack of people in the AL. I have only been in ONE open thread the entire time I have been in my two visits to the AL, so most of my Shoki came from Solos. That's where I believe a issue pops up. There is no reason to stay because depending on who you are, you can only get One bonus for being in the AL. Bonuses for Hell/Evil Character - Ensenji Fruit (One time Bonus) Bonuses for Hell/Neutral Character - Bezelbub Training (Kaioken variant) Bonuses for Heaven - King Kai's Training (Kaioken) Bonuses for AL in general - Bonuses to gradings From my experience, Hell and Heaven feel like a punishment of "Write this many words before you can get out of your cage and interact with the world." For me, its the worst part of the site. Shoki can only be spent on three things, one of which can not be purchased by Evil characters. You can be trained, get out of the AL, or get a body. With Zeni you can get tens of things all of which give ya boosts as long as you can afford them and use them properly. Shoki is so useless compared to any other resource, that you gain a bonus 50% of it as PL without any modifiers. This is a walk around the underlining issue to me. Shoki is just a PUNISHMENT currency. Dying should have a punishment, but this hard of a punishment is a turn off! The raw amounts of words I need to write in estimate is 25,000! Here is a rough estimate of my rewards for those same 25K if I wanted just pure PL. 17,000 PL, or 8,000 PL? I want the higher one, because that's without a Good sized modifier. If it was Zeni, then I could purchase a MAX Gravity Chamber and a level 2 House and have some Zeni left over! For me, the AL is a terrible place to be. You see everyone else and their events, DEs and Sagas and you want to join and hang out and have a good time. You joined a RP, why don't you ENJOY That RP? I just want to RP my guy, but when I am forced to write and write and write for the RIGHT to play with my friends? I love the community, everyone is helpful and have unique characters! I love trying to work dialogue, but I am terrified of every DE I get in because in my mind its either I get something (for me specifically, a Transformation), or I am forced to death march write a massive number of words. For everyone else, it won't be as high as mine. I have died twice, but the sheer number presented to me fills me with dread. What do you guys think? - You get a significant bonus to PL gains in the after life upon achieving your body.
- Any leftover shoki gets turned into bonus power level
- Shoki-Based escapes are a boon to prevent you from having to tear up your character sheet
- The potential bonuses outweigh the bad
- Try not to die or stop gambling on DE's if your not willing to deal with the potential of dying.
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Post by Helix Crust on Jan 31, 2016 2:59:46 GMT
There's an argument to be made that afterlife promotes grinding though, which I think is pretty legitimate, and lame that you have to solo grind 25k words. We want to promote NOT solo grinding.
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Otto
Archived
Zeni & Item Xfer to Fleece
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Posts: 391
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Post by Otto on Jan 31, 2016 3:00:19 GMT
Diluting the consequences of death dilutes the impact that it has on the game. You need to be away for awhile.
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Post by Kizuki on Jan 31, 2016 3:07:19 GMT
There's an argument to be made that afterlife promotes grinding though, which I think is pretty legitimate, and lame that you have to solo grind 25k words. We want to promote NOT solo grinding. I'd agree with you, but I'd also argue the fact that it would promote an increase in roleplay ability. Maybe it'd be easy to grind 25k words, but if you're just cranking out solo's to hit that mark, without a relevant story as to how to a.) get your body back and b.) actually get out of the AL it's all for nothing. From what I understand, just having the Shoki to gain access to a body and leave the AL is half the battle. You have to have something that makes sense for both. Whereas in the living world, someone can simply grind in threads of the daily life of a beet farmer and gain substantial PL or zeni gains and no one can say anything about it.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Jan 31, 2016 3:14:27 GMT
There's an argument to be made that afterlife promotes grinding though, which I think is pretty legitimate, and lame that you have to solo grind 25k words. We want to promote NOT solo grinding. I'd agree with you, but I'd also argue the fact that it would promote an increase in roleplay ability. Maybe it'd be easy to grind 25k words, but if you're just cranking out solo's to hit that mark, without a relevant story as to how to a.) get your body back and b.) actually get out of the AL it's all for nothing. From what I understand, just having the Shoki to gain access to a body and leave the AL is half the battle. You have to have something that makes sense for both. Whereas in the living world, someone can simply grind in threads of the daily life of a beet farmer and gain substantial PL or zeni gains and no one can say anything about it. Also, theoretically (which, I know, isn't ideal) the word-count you're pumping out doesn't need to be solo--only, not many people are dead right now. I was personally a proponent of perma-death (outside of Dragon Ball revives) back in the day, before I talked myself into a more fair approach.
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Post by Kizuki on Jan 31, 2016 3:19:28 GMT
I'd agree with you, but I'd also argue the fact that it would promote an increase in roleplay ability. Maybe it'd be easy to grind 25k words, but if you're just cranking out solo's to hit that mark, without a relevant story as to how to a.) get your body back and b.) actually get out of the AL it's all for nothing. From what I understand, just having the Shoki to gain access to a body and leave the AL is half the battle. You have to have something that makes sense for both. Whereas in the living world, someone can simply grind in threads of the daily life of a beet farmer and gain substantial PL or zeni gains and no one can say anything about it. Also, theoretically (which, I know, isn't ideal) the word-count you're pumping out doesn't need to be solo--only, not many people are dead right now. I was personally a proponent of perma-death (outside of Dragon Ball revives) back in the day, before I talked myself into a more fair approach. Personally, I wouldn't really care to do things in a group setting in the AL. I know a lot of people like the bonuses of doing group threads, and overall interaction to make it less boring. I would do solo's to push a story for Kizuki, personally, and it'd be generally difficult to rely on someone else to get you the progression to get out of the AL, imho. Though, if there was a second death I assume that would be a lot tougher, so I can see the frustration in doing it on your own. On perma-death, well, we're all glad you listened to yourself, heh'.
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Tako
Archived
PL Transferred to Mizo
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Intense Struggle(x3)
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Tag: @tako
Posts: 64
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Post by Tako on Jan 31, 2016 10:03:17 GMT
For what it is worth, this is one of the main reasons I haven't had Tako return to life right away - I intend for her to be a fixture in Heaven for the foreseeable future, to give people someone to play with.
I know this doesn't help Hell very much, but I'm not gonna dedicate two of my slots to the task!
I can also sympathize with the 'third time' cost being very, very high. I don't think it is reasonable for people to go 'well just don't die then' either, because 1) that promotes OOC metagaming where you are unwilling to act as your character would due to OOC considerations and 2) It just isn't a very helpful or productive comment.
Back when this was discussed the first time, I suggested that death costs should 'drop off' over time - say, after six months the amount of 'times' you've been dead for the purposes of coming back to life goes down by one if you haven't died in that period (to a minimum of one, obviously). I still think this would be a good way to avoid having to drop a character, with a six month gap feeling like a pretty significant amount of time between 'deaths'.
Koramund even says right in the first post that he agrees there needs to be a penalty, the problem is that he believes the penalty is too steep. I agree to some extent; I dislike two deaths meaning you are always going to need a massive amount of words to return to 'proper' play unless you have allies capable of gathering the dragon balls. If I remember correctly, though, last time I brought this up the feeling was that the punishment level is about right - and that doesn't seem likely to change here.
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Bing Gan
Administrator
PL: 374,871
Enlightenment (x16P), S. Ascension (x23)
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OOC Name: Bing/Biggums/TruetoCaesar
Posts: 3,722
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Post by Bing Gan on Jan 31, 2016 10:07:08 GMT
I wouldn't be entirely opposed to changing the penalty. As someone who's had an alt go to heaven, I can attest that it is very difficult to want to write alone for so long; even the first death is a little draining despite being so cheap comparatively.
At the very least, you don't have to buy a body on repeat visits at the current moment.
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Koramund
Archived
PL: 121,168
Bio Metabolize(x3)
Zeni: 2,003
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Tag: @koramund
OOC Name: Saiyan, Namekian, Human
Posts: 694
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Post by Koramund on Jan 31, 2016 12:12:41 GMT
I wouldn't be entirely opposed to changing the penalty. As someone who's had an alt go to heaven, I can attest that it is very difficult to want to write alone for so long; even the first death is a little draining despite being so cheap comparatively. At the very least, you don't have to buy a body on repeat visits at the current moment. As I said, plus you gain PL for half your Shoki gains which does help ease it. One of the old suggestions I heard a long time ago was that it could be a timer, like 1 month, 3 months then 6 months per death. I thought that would make it so that you don't instantly come back (some people can write a lot of words in a short amount of time, like how once I wanted to get out of Hell for the 2nd time it only took me basically 2 weeks.) and it would mean that you don't need to basically buy most of a level 3 house just to get out. If shoki was more like "Hey, I will get you out faster!" Lets use the current numbers.. 16,000 Shoki gets you out of the AL for third death. Lets use 6 months for this, so that is around 182.5 days. Every 100 Shoki will burn off 1.14 Days The Shoki cost to get out of Hell is the same, but the longer you stay there the easier it is to get out. So if your REALLY desperate to get out of the AL? Do the same thing, solo post after solo post. If you want to train? Train and don't worry that if you just want to get stronger you will never get out. But my idea is that the Shoki to Day ratio is fixed. That way its easier to count (you don't need 3 shoki variables) and based on how many times you died, you can just say "Okay... you get out on this date if you want to. He wants to spend 600 Shoki on it, so let me remove about 6 days..." That's my opinion anyway
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Post by Kaula on Jan 31, 2016 18:05:23 GMT
Nah. Too complicated.
Also if someone is really desperate to get out, they can still do solos fast. If not, they can still do solos or group threads and take their time.
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Tako
Archived
PL Transferred to Mizo
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Tag: @tako
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Post by Tako on Jan 31, 2016 18:08:18 GMT
I agree Kora's proposed system is too complicated.
I prefer the idea of, essentially, a 'bonus' for not getting yourself killed. Dropping the level of payment by one for every six months you manage to keep yourself alive seems perfect to me.
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