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Post by Kaula on Jun 21, 2015 1:01:36 GMT
So. Mechanization. Something that a lot of players have told me made them avoid becoming an arcosian/changling.
Now. Here's my thought of it being a required. It's stupid. It's so incredibly inbecile that it's required only for Arcosians when we've seen other races mechanize in the series but, you know, that's not really required.
So, here's an idea. Replace it with something different. Just get rid of the mechanize transformation in Arcosians.
Now, I bet you are wondering about the title, right? Hm? You wondering what I mean? Well, what I mean is that it should be an item.
What's that, you don't understand? Well let me clarify. It will be an item that you can buy. Sort of similar to the android racial ability where they can pay instead of dying. This item will allow your character to, when they die, cheat out death by becoming part robo. You know.. Like Frieze, Mercenary Tao, and others have done in the series. And this can only be done ONCE.
It can be flavored anyway then. Magic, they want to become part robot, whatever fits in the lore most likely. Though, for Majins (and probably Namekians and Demons, but definately majins) this will not be allowed as I feel creatures with Regeneration shouldn't be allowed to have this.
Price? I don't know right now.
Did I miss something? maybe. Was it confusing like most of my suggestions? probably, I just needed this to be said.
Discuss!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 1:03:49 GMT
I don't mind the mechanization, but I think you should have the option of either it or, say, Golden Form. One or the other, just not both.
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Post by Zexama on Jun 21, 2015 1:09:43 GMT
Regeneration does not save us from death.
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Post by Kaula on Jun 21, 2015 1:11:57 GMT
True. I kinda just put my foot in my mouth by saying it could be magic but magical creatures couldn't use it. When I was making it, I thought of only using prosthetics and shizz, and it didn't make much sense for a majin to not have one of those. xD
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Post by Zexama on Jun 21, 2015 1:34:41 GMT
Alright, I see what you were kinda going with though, it may be overpowered for majins to have it, but if every race is allowed access to it, maybe majins have no access to it so that it is balanced out?
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Post by Kayle on Jun 21, 2015 3:43:36 GMT
It doesn't make much sense for Namekians either, as Piccolo stated, and is shown to be able to, regenerate so long as his head is intact. If your head is destroyed I would think you would e gone regardless. So it really would be more of a downgrade for a Namekian to take it because they would likely lose their regeneration capabilities, and their stretchy limb thing, and great namek if they had that form.
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Post by President Bao on Jun 21, 2015 12:02:42 GMT
Hopefully you realise that 'flavour it however you want' is already part of the ability, and that mechanically it is literally just a 'get out of death free' card that unlocks your next set of forms, akin to bio-androids requiring absorption to unlock their next set of forms. Even the nick-name 'machanisation' is just a flavourised way of saying it, based on canon having 'mecha-frieza' As for the thought itself of 'buyable mechanisation' - consider that races are designed to follow a particular power curve, giving them the ability to turn into a different race('android') through the purchase of a simple item would cause them to be very overpowered, thus why it is constrained as it is. It does not appear this was considered when coming up with this suggestion, though I do see it was left very bare-bones as an intended starting point for chat. I 100% encourage everyone to share ideas and make discussions/suggestions, but to those who wish to get a little more involved I definitely recommend considering the current implementation and asking the question 'why', applying some analysis as a designer to deconstruct and figure out what's 'under the hood' so to speak - knowing why something is as it is gives you better bearing on how to resolve these same issues while potentially addressing the new design problem you are considering.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 21, 2015 13:05:36 GMT
It is far from clear that you can flavour it how you like - I assumed it was like the 'no red super saiyan' rule.
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Post by Hyoza on Jun 21, 2015 13:45:29 GMT
I've long been dissatisfied with Arcosian progression.
Not because it's mechanisation. Don't really care about that.
But because it feels lazy. Arcosians are a canon race with a crapton of known transformations (only Saiyans had more).
Instead of spacing out their xforms more or working them differently (mastered Royal Form anyone?) we just hand Arcosians this mechanisation thing (currently the only path worth following competitively, too), which can be 'flavoured' however you want.
So, basically they're the one canon race where we just give players carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want with their xforms past a certain point.
And I'm not down with that. I don't want to offend anybody, but this is a DBZ site - I'm here because I love the canon, and I always strive to hew as close as possible to the tone and overall style of Toriyama's universe.
We already have Androids, Bio-Androids, Demons (somewhat), and THREE custom Aliens templates available for people who wanna make wacky special snowflakes. I don't support opening up an iconic canonical race to that treatment. It's a dilution of the 'DBZness' that drew me here.
I'll throw up a proposal for an alternate xforms progression at some point soon, but right now, this is a very feelings-based message.
We KNOW Arcosians had 4 distinct forms in the original series, plus the full power variation of True Form. Then you had Cooler with his additional transformation (Royal Form on this site), one of the most popular transformation designs in DBZ fandom. It also sucks currently.
Then we have Ultimate Evolution, from RoF, which we KNOW can be achieved through training and breaking one's boundaries (and it doesn't have to be gold apparently). people who argue that we should then allow SSG can get bent - Ultimate Evolution doesn't require lost ancient knowledge or outside help to achieve.
Perhaps my sentiments are expressed crudely, and I apologise for anybody that finds that upsetting, but this is what I think. I'm tired of putting safety padding on everything I say.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 21, 2015 14:11:14 GMT
I'm lucky in that my arcosian was essentially designed with 'mechanizing makes sense' in mind. I can totally understand Hyoza's frustration, though.
I'd be in favour of having two distinct paths. One along the mechanizing route - perhaps it essentially DOES turn you into an Android, with all the racial advantages/disadvantages that has. I don't think that'd be broken mechanically because you'd have to wait longer before getting into the android transformation line than androids - which gives them a period where they are stronger and they've still had all the stuff that makes androids great. It doesn't make much sense to me that a mechanized arcosian is weaker than an android IC - OOC it seems to be a balancing act for their strong start, but I don't think that's strictly necessary.
On the other end, the way I'd play it would be to have 'mastered' versions of the previous forms - keeping their early access but letting arcosians learn how to be in Brute, Alien, True and finally Royal form continuously in order to fill out the ranks between x16 and x39. This'd mimic and then expand on the fact Cold seemed to favour the Brute form, and would keep somewhat to canon.
I'm not in favour of 'Ultimate Evolution' being added because I don't think Arcosians should get a transformation greater than x39 and seeing that form at x39 feels... bad. The alternate way of doing it, I guess, would be to give them something mid-game around x22-24 at 250k, like humans, and then nothing until Ultimate Evolution which my gut says would be a x45 - a payoff for (almost) completely skipping all the extra power tiers a cybercosian would get.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 14:42:01 GMT
My idea is that the Arcosians maybe transform like Majins, they need a large amount of training but when they hit it, ALL their forms increase. Saiyans after 20K PL can be the exact same power level as Arcosians with no weaknesses, just spend 2 tech slots. Simple as that. Arcosians get it for free, but lose half of their PL per word. Later on, people are stronger then the Arcosian for the rest of the game. Plus there is one detail some people may be forgetting here...
"Royal Form (x16) - Having obtained the ability of only a select few prim and proper higher-up Arcosians the character in question notices a slight change in power if they never became a mechanized being. It's not much stronger then their Mechanization form or their Full Powered or Mastered form, but this marks the end of an Arcosian's growth at this point if they take on this level of power since they cannot become a Cyber Arcosian after this point. It requires the Mastered Form to achieve it as well as 220,000 PL."
How much PL do you need to become a Cyber Arcosian? 200,000. So for 20K more PL, what do we get? A x16 transformation! +1 more than the normal Arcosian, which then 30K PL later gains a transformation almost 1.5 times stronger. Arcosians that don't want to transform into their cyber form basically lose the ability to do so after this transformation, which just sucks! Arcosians don't deserve terrible transformation modifiers because early game, a person can simply wait out their time in non-DE threads and just wait tell they are stronger then the Arcosian. Simple as that. DEs give a great bonus, but how many are we TRULY seeing? Seriously I don't know, only 6 people have died if I am correct. If you don't want to fight an Arcosian, you can just simply hide from them. Arcosians may be powerful but they take such a hard hit to their gradings that it might not be worth it. I get balance and all that stuff, but when you give other races the opportunity to reach WELL WITHIN the 65% for a fair battle, it makes it kinda unfair. hell, as I said before SAYAINS are equal to Arcosians with only a few tech slots! Arcosians only get ways to be weaker until around 150K, and then everyone else has raced past them or are close to.
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Post by Hyoza on Jun 21, 2015 15:18:54 GMT
My idea for Ultimate Evolution was that it'd be around x40 - x42, but the downside would be that they have no mults between x20 and that, so they experience a looooong period where they're really non-competitive.
EDIT: I also never wanted to REMOVE the mechanization tree. I just wanted to make it more of a choice, rather than the only option if you intend to play past 2nd tier.
ALSO: Ultimate Evolution canonically probably isn't that big a multiplier. Frieza's base PL is HUGE.
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Post by Zuni on Jun 21, 2015 15:29:43 GMT
That sounds fair to me. I don't think a x42-45 would be bad. The x10 is only a big advantage up to 150k, after which everyone else is doing better than you. Having a completely mediocre middle game- we're talking worse than human at x20 - would justify a high level end game (x40 probably isn't enough to justify it over mechanization to my mind, though).
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Post by President Bao on Jun 23, 2015 3:54:40 GMT
Going royal doesn't stop you going utilising your reconstruction ability, it's a racial trait which is avaliable any time after 200,000 - I requested that particular line alongside some other errors which were present to be removed, I would do so now but I lack bandwidth while at work - even more reason why those profiles need updating though, a task I need moral support for.
Both a max power arcosian or a mastered(and later royal) arcosian can utilise their revival, just like frieza and cooler did, I don't actually know where the idea that royal blocks it came from as it wasn't on my transformations sheet.
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Post by Kayle on Jun 23, 2015 4:11:58 GMT
Could soneone fo royal and play past the points for x5 x10 x15 mechs and start at x22 meta for their first?
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