Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on May 28, 2015 16:24:16 GMT
So, as most of you are aware, the site suffers from an over-reliance on ki techs: this is because ki techs are the only combat mechanic to have a true tangible 'system'. Melee combat is a lot more freeform, and to me, this is preferable and allows for a lot more freedom; however, a lot of people are uncomfortable with freeform combat, and a lot of people are unable to stop themselves from godmodding and playing fairly, so a PL system is used to primarily inform combat outcomes.
Melee combat does not obviously use PL, beyond the usual rule: "9) Fighters are considered equal in power within 85% power-level of the opponent. Fighters within 60% of the leading fighter can still achieve victory, though the difference in power is noticeable."
This means a lot of people simply consider if flavour in combat threads, when it should really be one of the primary aspects of combat instead of the problem of 'technique spam' we still have yet to resolve.
I don't really know how to solve this myself, I couldn't think of any ideas. One suggestion was relaxing the rules on godmodding player exchanges and melee hits, but to me this just furthers it as 'flavour' and not as a genuine method of player versus player combat.
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Post by Hyoza on May 28, 2015 16:26:36 GMT
If we want to use it as serious genuine damaging mechanics we need to clarify our position on it being an alternative to techs, rather than a completely hollow mechanic. We need to somehow shift the player mindset away from the raw numbers presented by technique mechanics.
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Post by Hinawa on May 28, 2015 16:41:35 GMT
[I'm too lazy to switch characters, this is Johnathan, known in the chatbox as SilimSavertin.]
Freeform is the only true way to RP melee combat, imo. Every kind of mechanic I've seen used before to help with melee combat has completely flopped, or turned it into just another numbers-fest, much like techniques work currently sometimes. Freeform is harder to RP, that is true, but it also makes for more exciting fights and roleplay in combat.
Some people seem to have the mindset that they need to "win". That is true for the characters IC, most of the time, they want to "win". However, as a player, your goal shouldn't be to win. It should be to advance your character, be it through a win or loss, perhaps even through dying. (remember lads, this is DBZ. Escaping from the Afterlife is literally a few short solo or group threads away that you can do in a single day if you're so inclined. Heaven/Hell might as well install revolving doors, and that is a GOOD thing.)
That mindset needs to be applied to melee combat from both sides. If your opponent CHARACTER (remember to stay IC with your ways of fighting in melee, guys) is doing some awesome move that your CHARACTER wouldn't see coming or be able to block, you need to mentally concede to it and be hit. Depending on your opponent's strength, everyone needs to take a hard, long look at themselves and just accept that their characters can be hurt, even quite badly, by a devastating melee combo. In the spirit of good RP, that should be something you accept and work with.
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Kahr Diak
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Post by Kahr Diak on May 28, 2015 16:55:17 GMT
I had a mildly complicated dodge proposal which would see, as a side effect, melee attacks being brought into more common usage but I was unsure about posting it because 1) staff have a ton of stuff on their plates already and 2) it would go against (what I take to be - I still don't feel like I totally 'get' everything) the existing culture. But what the heck, I'll post it up!
The basic idea is to provide some more structure to the ability to just 'dodge' without adding any randomness, and still preserving the ability TO dodge by providing a downside rather than a strict ban except at very high levels of difference.
All values would be based on the PL of the attack vs the PL of the defender.
If the incoming attack is <50% your PL you can dodge with no penalty and no restrictions. That's a standard technique! You can keep up easily.
If the incoming attack is 50%-99% your PL you can dodge BUT you can only use melee attacks or basic energy blasts during the next round (representing an inability to focus your energy because you are concentrating on defense). Alternatively, if you use a Defensive technique (like Zanzoken or Energy Shield) you have no restrictions on what you can do in return. That's a respectable level of power your opponent is throwing at you!
If the incoming attack is 100%-149% your PL you can dodge without using a technique BUT you can't retaliate in any way because of the concentration required in avoiding the technique. If you use a Defensive technique you may retaliate but only with melee attacks or basic energy blasts. That's an incredibly strong technique that commands respect!
If the incoming attack is at 150%>199% your PL you cannot dodge without the use of a Defensive technique and that is really going to suck for you. If you use a Defensive Technique you can avoid the technique but you can't retaliate in kind.
If the incoming attack is 200%+ your PL even your Defensive techniques won't save you from taking a hit, though they might give you enough of a short-term boost to avoid a dead-on strike. If you're getting a lot of attacks thrown at you at this level you want to be running.
So for instance, if your PL is 1000 - attacks at 499 you can deal with trivially, attacks at 500-999 you can deal with and retaliate with 'basic' attacks but you'll need to pull out something fancy if you want to retaliate with your big guns, attacks at 1000-1499 you can dodge but you'll be spending a post acknowledging the effort of that in some way - whether by being unable to attack at all or only being able to use your basic techniques even though you zanzoken'd. At 1500-1999 you're going to have to use a get-out-of-jail-free card to avoid a solid blow that will really hurt, and at 2000+ you're facing some seriously huge guns that are, one way or another, going to leave their mark.
I think this would stay in the spirit of the PL rules - techniques scale from 33%>66%>100% and even up to someone with a base PL of 1000 facing someone with a base PL of 2000 (which should be unbeatable for them) is only definitively screwed if if the high level opponent jumps straight to the biggest attacks in their arsenal. Below that, choosing to negate your opponent's attacks brings with it an increased likelihood that you're gonna have to spend a turn punching and kicking in return.
This would also help break up charges a bit because you wouldn't necessarily be able to rely on being able to dodge your way around to a free round of charging.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 28, 2015 17:22:25 GMT
I agree that Melee needs a hard line that brings it to the fore.
I appreciate what you're trying to do with the dodge system Kahr, I also agree that we need a dodge system that goes along with our tech system, as the two concepts are causal to one another and people frequently dodge 3-4 techs every fight they are in. I think we can simplify it though.
Here's my idea to bring melee to the fore.
KP (Ki Points)
Every fighter 100,000 PL or below starts with 3 KP.
Starting at 100,000 PL, and increasing every 100,000 PL beyond that, 1 KP is added. (100k PL = 4 KP, 200k = 5 KP, etc)
Every time someone doesn't fire or charge a technique, they gain 1 KP up to their maximum.
N1 costs 1 KP.
V2/UP2 costs 2 KP
MP3/UV3 costs 3 KP.
Once the person's KP is up, they need to wait for their KP to reload at a rate of 1 KP per tech-less post.
Defensive SUs such as Zanzoken:
SU costs 1 KP
SU2 costs 2 KP
SU3 costs 3 KP
Non-defensive or flavor oriented SU3s cost 0 KP.
Dodging:
A player may only dodge or damage-lessly deflect an opponent's Offensive techniques without the aid of a defensive SU if the attack is below 65% if the attack is reasonably foreseen. Attacks greater than 65% PL require the use of a defensive SU (Zanzoken for ex.) to dodge. Consecutive dodging is not allowed, unless the player is using a defensive SU.
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Kahr Diak
Rising Soul
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Post by Kahr Diak on May 28, 2015 17:50:18 GMT
That seems like a pretty elegant system, Vi-Poi, and I think that'd work well.
My one gripe would be that I don't... see why you'd use an SU2 or an SU3 unless it did something more than 'just' dodge. My suggestion there would be to say that you need to spend as many KP as your opponent on an SU Defense for the defense to be effective. That might favour offence too heavily, though.
I also like this because it gives me a reason to pose doing my favourite thing in Dragon Ball Z RP: Scream and cover myself in fire for a post or two without obviously charging an attack. (I'm not even joking, I actually really like the flavour of 'now I am powering up' and everyone else going 'oh mah gerd he is powering up!)
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Post by Vennel on May 28, 2015 18:05:27 GMT
A good fix for that, thats somewhat balanced would be in order to dodge with an SU, you need to pay half the price, rounded down, of the attack's KP. That way someone can't just strong arm you as easily, but still allows for tactical use of stronger attacks to try and keep your opponent on the defensive while making sure that someone significantly stronger actually feels that significant strength.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 28, 2015 20:39:18 GMT
KP SystemEvery player starts a thread with 3 KP maximum. Every post where a player does not use KP generates 1 KP. Tech Type | KP Cost | N1, SU1
| 1 | UP2, V2, SU2 | 2 | MP3, UV3, SU3 | 3 |
Only Combat-Action SUs drain KP when used. These include Afterimage or similar dodging techs, Solar Flare, offensive add-ons. Passive SUs or SUs not directly related to combat such as Ki Sense and its relatives, Ki Suppression, etc. have 0 KP cost. Senzu beans restore all KP [Limit 1 per fight].
What do you guys think? Short and very simple, it makes N1s and UP2s viable instead of mere stepping stones, and it makes MP3s a big expense plus lends them dramatic flare, rather than their constant spamming which is the current case.
As for the question of "why use an SU3 dodge?" my idea was that an SU3 would be able to dodge any attack regardless of its PL, whereas SU1s would be relegated to smaller PLs, and SU2s would be made for slightly higher attacks ~ your own.
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Post by Hyoza on May 28, 2015 20:41:14 GMT
I'd be happy for this to go up as-is, further fine-tuning may be needed later, but right now it's vastly preferable to what we currently have - encourages more people to use things OTHER than techniques. I know Bao and rev had it in mind that Techs not be the be-all-and-end-all of combat, but currently they have been.
We need this, +1 from me.
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Post by Pah'mazhan on May 28, 2015 20:43:02 GMT
I'm supporting this table and all of the doodads that go along with it
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Mayze
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Post by Mayze on May 28, 2015 20:43:44 GMT
I don't want to add more complexity to the system. I'd rather just keep it as is, free form. It's one of the reasons why I joined the site, I can't stand dodging mechanics, stats, and things like that.
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Post by Hyoza on May 28, 2015 20:44:42 GMT
All we need to do is define the differences between levels of dodges, now. I'd say SU1 would be 'dodge any tech up to 100% of your PL' SU2 - any tech up to 200% SU3 - any tech, a sort of emergency-panic-button, since it would also totally drain your KP, forcing you to recharge after you've used it. I don't want to add more complexity to the system. I'd rather just keep it as is, free form. It's one of the reasons why I joined the site, I can't stand dodging mechanics, stats, and things like that. But the issue is that right now - it's not freeform unless there's a mutual agreement for it to be so. Yes, this is slightly more complex (but it's really quite straightforward), but it encourages people to do the shit that DBZ was mostly about - crazy martial arts, rather than constant technique spam.
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Post by Zuni on May 28, 2015 20:47:32 GMT
I am very much in favour of this system. I like Hyoza's addendum re: dodging too, I think that'd help out massively.
I also liked the idea of KP growth, though. 1 for every 100,000 base PL seemed pretty cool to me, as it'd mean that when you're rocking a base PL of 1 million, your whole style of combat would likely change compared to the lower levels. That felt like it'd help distinguish between 'high level' and 'low level' combat in a more interesting way than just bigger numbers.
ETA - I am also Kahr and I am a huge dork who forgets what alt they've already used to post in a thread, just so it doesn't look like there's more support for this than there is. Derp derp derp.
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Johnathan
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Post by Johnathan on May 28, 2015 20:48:32 GMT
Using a SU to dodge 100% of your PL might be a bit too much. Let's say you're the same level as your enemy, so if you fire a MP3 for big effect, it cost you 3 slots and 3 KP to use it at 100% of your PL. Now if your enemy is your equal, he can dodge for a tech that cost 1 technique slot and 1 KP? That doesn't seem balanced at all and would make using offensive techniques a bad idea.
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Post by Hyoza on May 28, 2015 20:49:50 GMT
I don't really see the need for unlocking additional KP - tech strength is directly related to your own PL - an N1 is always 66% per turn regardless of PL - so a 1mil base character is still using the same portion of their ki as a base 100 character with each tech. Using a SU to dodge 100% of your PL might be a bit too much. Let's say you're the same level as your enemy, so if you fire a MP3 for big effect, it cost you 3 slots and 3 KP to use it at 100% of your PL. Now if your enemy is your equal, he can dodge for a tech that cost 1 technique slot and 1 KP? That doesn't seem balanced at all and would make using offensive techniques a bad idea. You can charge an offensive (in this case an MP3) beyond 100% for no additional cost, though. A fully-charged MP3 is waaaaaay over 100% of your PL. EDIT: that said, somebody with a better knowledge of the numbers-game would be best for this, I'm more proposing a sort of framework for tiered dodges.
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