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Post by Vennel on May 25, 2015 19:25:19 GMT
They have no culture that is fully expanded upon, what that creates is a very shallow thing to work upon for characters. But as you say yourself, in your opinion, it'd be a frieza-like figure. And while I agree that would also fit the bill just right, what it boils down to is opinion. In fact, the simple fact they have no well established culture means that it has a lot of room for creativity. That's probably why people have their own theories on saiyan society, or make their own original characters that fit into their culture as we /do/ know it. To pull a mystic figure "out of the blue" as you put it, is no different than to have ANY character do ANYTHING in a roleplay setting. Because it all exists in a vacuum of themes and lack of canon precedence during this time period.
Unless we consider everything ever done here on this forum or in any RP, or anything short of the words of Akira Toriyama himself as non-canon, then its no fair to merely discount someone's character, or their back story, even after it's been approved.
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Post by Zucceta on May 25, 2015 19:27:30 GMT
They have no culture that is fully expanded upon, what that creates is a very shallow thing to work upon for characters. But as you say yourself, in your opinion, it'd be a frieza-like figure. And while I agree that would also fit the bill just right, what it boils down to is opinion. Unless we consider everything ever done here on this forum or in any RP, or anything short of the words of Akira Toriyama himself as non-canon, then its no fair to merely discount someone's character, or their back story, even after it's been approved. My intent is to avoid as much 'fanon' as possible. Introducing a character, with no precedence, as a massive part of every saiyan's culture and upbringing if its a legend on the scale of the Super Saiyan, seems like bad fanon and a bad thing to set up for everyone else on this site.
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Post by Hyoza on May 25, 2015 19:38:54 GMT
I think you misunderstood, Vennel. I meant we do not have the power to apply any kind of veto here, even under the new system. We have the power to implement it, but that wasn't what I was referring to. I simply meant we are as bound by the suggestion-discussion-poll procedure as anyone else, even under the new system currently being debated. So we can't stop this categorically, we can only state our thoughts and hope they have an impact on the opinions of the eventual voters. And you can only do the same.
We record things that -happened- in RP, hdere or on the previous sites from which this one descended - things players actually did. We want to maintain that. And also, myths and legends have little relevance to the SSE lore stuff, which is more about the structure and makeup of the Empire - though kaula asked us privately to consider adding Zuni into the draft document.
I do wish people would stop being so damn confrontational.
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Post by Vennel on May 25, 2015 19:40:32 GMT
Thats the thing though, she didnt intend the character to be a huge part of the saiyan culture, just that it was an old legend. Its been several thousand years in a scientific age with no sighting of the person of that legend. There'd be no reason for most Saiyans to have to believe in it or have even heard of it. However, the character allows for others to have that option, and that opportunity to incorporate it into their characters freely.
But I don't see why just putting it on par with the SSJ legend makes it "bad fanon" or a "bad thing" at all. Because if we're going purely based on whats canon and shying away from fanon, then the two schools on Namek would need to be removed, as they didnt exist, and it puts them on par with the turtle and crane schools, which are canon.
I dunno, it just feels like the arguments for "why not" seem to come mostly just from a place of "i dont like it" or "I dont wanna" which seems more detrimental to democracy than any sluggishness in the system. Ultimately the decision rests with you guys, but if your worry is that democracy doesn't work in it's current capacity, the reason why it isn't working is because this isn't a democracy, it's already something where the staff just take the ideas from a suggestion area they like, and shoot down the ones they don't.
But I'm getting off topic, and I'm not going to pursue this any further. Do as you will.
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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 19:43:10 GMT
Alright everyone, chill out because it's starting to get a little personal in here. From what I gathered, Hyoza raised some points and I took it as a personal attack on Zuni after I had already been in a pretty negative mood. Right now, it seems like Vennel might have taken it a bit negatively as well. Hyoza, I already apologized to you in the staff chat, but here's another one. I'm sorry for getting upset and all. After all this, Zucceta saw it and was clearly upset over what she perceived as an attack on a staff member. TO MAKE ONE THING CLEAR. NO ONE HERE HATES ZUNI. Hyoza just has a few issues with the position and Rev, from what i gather, outright dislikes it.Now onto the next part, with you coming in here Zucceta.. I know you are saying you are wanting to hardveto it, but you can't go and make other things that weren't canon, canon and sweep other things under the rug. It doesn't feel like you're vetoing it, it feels like you are bringing a gavel down and are outright denying it, which is spitting in our "democratic" site policy. Emotions are high right now, please let's not try to get mad right now. EDIT: I think you misunderstood, Vennel. I meant we do not have the power to apply any kind of veto here, even under the new system. We have the power to implement it, but that wasn't what I was referring to. I simply meant we are as bound by the suggestion-discussion-poll procedure as anyone else, even under the new system currently being debated. So we can't stop this categorically, we can only state our thoughts and hope they have an impact on the opinions of the eventual voters. And you can only do the same. Honestly, I don't like this comment after seeing something said in the staff chat
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Post by Zucceta on May 25, 2015 19:49:42 GMT
But I don't see why just putting it on par with the SSJ legend makes it "bad fanon" or a "bad thing" at all. Because if we're going purely based on whats canon and shying away from fanon, then the two schools on Namek would need to be removed, as they didnt exist, and it puts them on par with the turtle and crane schools, which are canon. I dunno, it just feels like the arguments for "why not" seem to come mostly just from a place of "i dont like it" or "I dont wanna" which seems more detrimental to democracy than any sluggishness in the system. Ultimately the decision rests with you guys, but if your worry is that democracy doesn't work in it's current capacity, the reason why it isn't working is because this isn't a democracy, it's already something where the staff just take the ideas from a suggestion area they like, and shoot down the ones they don't. It's bad, because if it was that popular a legend it would have been mentioned at least in passing. In fact, a Sun Wukong analog would have probably been compared to... another Wukong analog in Goku at some point. I believe we have the right to say 'I don't like it'. I don't like it. That is not to say I dislike the character; I love the character. I just don't want something out of thin air coming and inserting itself into MY SITE background. As much as this site touts democracy, it is underneath it all a project of mine and Bao's and I believe that I should have some degree of say over site storyline.
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Post by Zuni on May 25, 2015 19:57:49 GMT
The character should -not- be a legendary figure with no canon precedence. The super saiyan is one thing, a legend with arguably canonical preference we can use as a frameworkThis is another. You drew comparison to the Super Saiyan in your character app, except we have nothing to go on from the source material; no precedence for this character model within saiyan folklore. Saiyans may not have a 'culture' that is obvious to you, but that is no excuse to just make something out of the blue. It doesn't even necessarily fit what their demon figure would be like (in my opinion, the saiyan devil would actually be something akin to a Frieza-like figure; a figure who can destroy them without even trying). See, here, this is what I thought it was worth trying to address. And I'd like to stress that the way Zucceta feels is absolutely understandable; I disagree (obviously) but what we're talking about now is the right of the character to exist at all, and not the potential for the character to fill a particular role within the ongoing story of the game. Its a subtly different point - and unless there's strong feeling that Zuni should be denied, it isn't one that if necessarily going to be resolved, but I think it is worth trying to address the issue. I'd also like to ask that people maybe calm down a little bit? I don't want feelings to be hurt over this and we're veering towards 'what you like is wrong" territory from here on out. I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that my character and her portrayal may not be to everyone's tastes - what I'm not comfortable with is the idea that anyone should feel attacked because their tastes are different to anyone else's. The fundamental issue at stake here, as identified by both Zucceta and Vennel pretty neatly, is that I've twisted existing canon to fit my character concept. Yup, that's fair. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that almost every character that tries to do something interesting with the underutilized aspects of the DBZ universe twists existing canon in some way to make that possible. The entire Arcosian species, anyone who uses an energy gun over a few thousand PL, and many of the elements that have gone into the site history could be seen to twist existing canon. In the cbox, Zucceta and Hyoza took issue with the idea that I've written Zuni in as legendary and that brings with it a level of prestige that is undeserved within the roleplay - it is bad form. I'd counter that by pointing out that several members of the site - including Hyoza, who I believe is Wyntyre's brother? - Have written themselves in as members of royal families which have temporal influence in the setting which demands to be recognized from the off. By contrast, Zuni's 'legend' is so ancient that there is no reasonable expectation that anyone will have ever heard of it. Her accomplishments may be brought up depending on the characters in question, but most of the time? They're not going to be relevant. The legend exists, but it exists as a background element which will be discovered only if other characters are in any way interested and do research to discover it. There are ties there for other players to use as elements in their background to create ties - but those exist in all sorts of ways in every character. They are, in fact, encouraged! Then there's the more fundamental issue of whether Zuni fits any one person's particular notion of what a Saiyan Devil would look like or whether their reaction to her and her antics in the past was canonically accurate. Well, on the first point I can indicate the Demon page. And: On the second, there's a bit more trouble. We can argue about whether my belief that Saiyans would find a being that preys on their racial weaknesses - their pride and their hunger - particularly terrifying, whether there might be room for other types of Saiyan Demon (I personally think the more the merrier; look at the vast array of demons that come out of Earth in the Dragon Ball Z universe and I think there's a strong argument for other races having just as rich and diverse legends) and whether my portrayal 'deserves' the level of respect I'm going for here... But really that all comes down to opinion. People are absolutely free to be of the opinion that my character doesn't work. I very much doubt I'm going to be the last person to write a concept for the site that some people feel is in poor taste or is being executed badly. However, when it comes to this attitude: That's shutting down a whole raft of character concepts which it simply isn't fair to block out. When we're accepting albino namekians and flying pigs who use cameras as weapons, I think it is absolutely fine to allow space in the mythology of the various races - particularly when dealing with characters who can justify having been around for a very long length of time. Now, can I make anyone acknowledge the character's backstory in RP? No. No more so than someone claiming to be descended from the current rulers of any given world can force other characters to acknowledge that if their players refuse to do so. Nor should I be able to do so - it isn't my role, as another player on the site, to force other players to play their characters in any particular way. If people's reaction is 'Nope don't care never heard of you' then that's fine - in fact, that's what I expect in 99% of cases, especially at first blush. But I don't feel like myth and legend should be given some sacrosanct status when people are free to make up other elements of culture to fit their characters so long as it doesn't contradict the established lore. Nothing in Zuni's history contradicts anything established about the Saiyan culture - and if it did, that should probably have been caught prior to approval. I hope this post wasn't too spammy, but it should address at least some of the 'but we should know about this' points that Zucceta has raised since I started typing it. No, unless your character is a student of obscure lore from thousands of years ago, you really shouldn't outside of, perhaps, the odd nursery rhyme; and how many Saiyan characters here are scholars of that calibre?
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Post by Vennel on May 25, 2015 20:16:11 GMT
Upon seeing Kaula's post, and things heard through the grape vine, I didn't realize things were getting all that heated. Everyone seemed pretty on the level and at least were contributing to discussion. But I realize now that's not the case, so I wanted to make an apology.
I tend to be very blunt and to the point about things, don't much care for beating around the bush if it goes on for too long, and my initial response was more in irritation that was how it looked to be going for a while. However It also had the misfortune of being posted at the same time as about two other posts, so that added layers of confusion there.
But anyways I do apologize, as it has not been my intent to cause any discourse or the like. Just wanted to toss my opinion out on the subject, and that caused things get out of hand, so for that, and the aforementioned reasons, I am sorry.
Hopefully we can all continue to have fun and enjoy ourselves here.
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Post by Hyoza on May 25, 2015 20:29:14 GMT
Hyoza is in no way related to Wyntre (just a thread title, I'm afraid), and is not even from a noble family, just to debunk that bit there.
As for the whole why it's okay to insert yourself as a legend-so-big-we-probably-should've-heard-about-it-before-now, I could go into great detail about what i don't like about it, why I don't think it's conducive to good RP, and why I don't think it's good for your character and the experience you will have playing her.
But it's just like being back on a WoW RP server arguing about dragon RPers and shit, and so I bid you adieu. Maybe when I'm a little bit less furious/depressed with the current state of affairs here I'll go into it fully.
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Post by Zuni on May 25, 2015 20:40:21 GMT
Hyoza is in no way related to Wyntre (just a thread title, I'm afraid), and is not even from a noble family, just to debunk that bit there. As for the whole why it's okay to insert yourself as a legend-so-big-we-probably-should've-heard-about-it-before-now, I could go into great detail about what i don't like about it, why I don't think it's conducive to good RP, and why I don't think it's good for your character and the experience you will have playing her. But it's just like being back on a WoW RP server arguing about dragon RPers and shit, and so I bid you adieu. Maybe when I'm a little bit less furious/depressed with the current state of affairs here I'll go into it fully. Once again, she isn't a legend so big anyone should have heard of her - I make that point several times. Its what I end on, even! Nobody who doesn't want to have heard of her has any reason to. Apologies for misrepresenting your character, though - I was making the assumption based on the thread title, because I haven't really had a reason to read into Hyoza's background yet. I'm also sorry if my posts have contributed to your frustration. Please do come back and have another look at what I said. I like to think I'm being somewhat more nuanced than you're implying, here, but if I'm not I'm happy to hear why.
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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 20:41:23 GMT
Alright, but still.. As Zuni and others have said.. Zuni is more of a folklore, not a legend. She won't be in the lore. But people can choose to have heard of her via connections and shizz like that.
BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT HER HAVING A ROLE ON VEGETA WHERE SHE CAN TEACH PEOPLE AND PROVIDE BALANCE TO EARTH'S HOLY WATER AND WHATEVER GURU HAS.
Can we please get back on track?
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Post by Zucceta on May 25, 2015 20:56:28 GMT
BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT HER HAVING A ROLE ON VEGETA WHERE SHE CAN TEACH PEOPLE AND PROVIDE BALANCE TO EARTH'S HOLY WATER AND WHATEVER GURU HAS. Dislike. Homogenizing another location board with a character concept when the Fruit of Might is being specifically introduced as a counter-balance for Holy Water, etc.
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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 21:17:59 GMT
BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT HER HAVING A ROLE ON VEGETA WHERE SHE CAN TEACH PEOPLE AND PROVIDE BALANCE TO EARTH'S HOLY WATER AND WHATEVER GURU HAS. Dislike. Homogenizing another location board with a character concept when the Fruit of Might is being specifically introduced as a counter-balance for Holy Water, etc. There's a few problems with that. 1) Fruit of Might requires a saga to get and it's only one per month. That isn't.. Very.. Fair. Or balanced, at all. 2) I know the seed is owned by someone, but it hasn't been used, let alone mentioned, yet. But, since all you seem to have is a problem with the Peaches.. *shrugs* Does anyone else have any problems with it?
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Post by Zucceta on May 25, 2015 21:53:42 GMT
Dislike. Homogenizing another location board with a character concept when the Fruit of Might is being specifically introduced as a counter-balance for Holy Water, etc. There's a few problems with that. 1) Fruit of Might requires a saga to get and it's only one per month. That isn't.. Very.. Fair. Or balanced, at all. 2) I know the seed is owned by someone, but it hasn't been used, let alone mentioned, yet. But, since all you seem to have is a problem with the Peaches.. *shrugs* Does anyone else have any problems with it? The Fruits of Might were still the designed counter-balance for the Holy Waters, etc, and having them not just be a rehash/rename, with a different method of obtaining power is not poor design but good design, giving asymmetry to the proceedings that would otherwise be negated with these peaches.
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Post by Kaula on May 25, 2015 21:59:56 GMT
Alright. If others fully agree, then we can certainly do away with the peaches, then.
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