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Post by President Bao on Apr 29, 2015 11:10:29 GMT
Bioandroids have been out for a little bit, and as we've been monitoring them it's time to review.
They have proven a very favored race, perhaps was of the single most popular races to date, which is good... but also telling. An area of monitoring was their power, particularly their flexibility in racial composition and their bio-metabolise form. I think keeping the flexibility is good, but that bio-meta has proven a little too powerful in it's raw strength perhaps (despite the drawbacks).
As hunters they were allowed to be more powerful than other races, their racial abilities synergise in very powerful manners, and their ability to increase their multiplier makes them incredibly proficient.
Reducing it's 'minimum cap' from x3 to x1 and potentially reducing it's max is a good idea I feel. I propose we keep it as starting at x3 when unlocked, but will go lower if used.
I'm also wondering if maybe additional requirements for like a tier 2 bio-metabolise might be a good idea. I feel it needs more consideration, so I raise the topic for discussion with you guys.
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Post by Reikiko on Apr 29, 2015 13:56:42 GMT
I think one of the 'big' reasons bio androids are so popular lately is because of a lot of misunderstandings surrounding the race as a whole.
However, while I wait for my brain to wake up entirely this is the main misunderstanding I feel that is making most people want to become a bio-android.
Their PL gains for their transformations. People assume that because Reikiko's transformation landed her a wooping 40k, they think it's an easy way to get two significant boosts. Nevertheless, they often forget that those gains are gained by putting your character on the line.
You're basically entering a DE with an x3 (or an x8 if you planned ahead) when most people are already at a point where they unlock their x11~12 etc), you're pretty much the scavenger in the shadows who either works with others to get his meal, or lurks and waits for the battle to near its ending.
reducing it from x3 to x1 sounds a bit unnecessary, because bio-metabolize is an early game something, and I genuinely thing the main reason for people to lately want to become bios is because of 1: the diversity in racial traits and 2: the PL gains.
for 2 I dislike the idea of reducing the gains, and it's an idea I dislike a lot because the race is a 'high risk, high reward' situation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 17:03:24 GMT
While I cannot speak to the gains PL wise, I think the proposed change to Bio-Metabolize is poorly thought out. Bio-Androids get a x3, like most races do early on, then three permanent transformations. That's basically it. In order to use the middle two, you have to quite literally force someone else to go to Hell. It's not an easy thing. You're risking your character there as well, and it's likely not going to be slanted too heavily in your favor, as most people are not going to join a DE with a stronger Bio-Android who they know is seeking Semi-perfect or Perfect
The X8 is equal to Alien C, Demon, and LESS than Saiyan, and they just have to make a thread during a certain week, or give up a tech slot. We have to risk our lives to use it ONCE. I don't think there's a lot of Bio-Androids who are successfully doing that on a routine basis. What you'd be doing is, in practical terms, removing the Bio-Android's ability to stand on equal ground with most people. Take Walker, who's at 53,000 PL. Now, instead of being equal to a human at that level, perhaps slightly stronger with regeneration, he's now a third of their fighting power.
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Koramund
Archived
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Post by Koramund on Apr 29, 2015 20:17:02 GMT
racial composition = Seriously? For this I disagree heavily, since most of their stats are either half breed or worse, weakening them to in some occasions almost uselessness (Especially Zenkai). Now time for my MAIN point... This list will say each race's transformation modifier, and at what PL do they gain it (Majins may get up to +5, not included) Majin | x3 (Start) | x7 (70K) | x9 (100K) | x13 (150K) | Bio | x0 (Start) | x3 to x8 (Halves per use, 20K) | x13 (120K+DE death) | x15 (150K) | Android | x3 (Start, Zeni cost) | x6 to x9 (50K) | x9 to x12 (100K) | x16 to x19 (150K) | Saiyan | x10 (Start, event/manual 50K) | x12 (100K) | x15 (175K) | x17/x12 (175K) | Human | x3 (Start) | x6 (70k) | x16 (140K) | x23 (250K) | Daemon | x3 (Start) + x8 (Event) | x8 (70K) | x18 (140K) | x22 (240K) | Arcosian | x10 (Start) | x5 (5K) + x8 (20K) | x15 + x12 (150K) | x16 (220K) | Hybrid | X10 (Event start) / x4 (Desperation, 35K) | x11 (100K) | x14 + x18/x12 (175K) | x25 (250K) | Namekian | x4 (1 Tech slot) | x7 (50K) | x18 (150K + Namek PC) | x20 (220K) |
These are the first 4 transformations (or for Bio-Android, first 3). Bios unlike every other race need to kill and absorb someone in DE, which can be STOPPED! Plus, Hell is one of the worst places on this entire site, its basically just doing solo threads until you earn 8K Shoki, and buying free. But what about Bios that have no allies? They are not getting that x8 boost without wasting 5 tech slots, that are LOST on usage of the transformation? They gain their transformation later, and is only better under ideal circumstances. For me, I have 77K PL, I have only absorbed ONE person before, and have died already trying to absorb another. Arcosians with small weights in their monster form are equal to Bio's strongest transformation with normal gains. Daemons, Hybrids, Androids, Majins, Saiyans, and Arcosians are all stronger then Bios at their PEAK in between 20K-120K. They don't deserve a nerf when we have Arcosians have a double digit transformation from the start, and so many other races catch up pretty fast and only need PL, NOT a DE death or 5 PL slots (36K PL, so without absorption a Bio gains a x8 between 36K-48K, and immediately returns to an x4 after words.) Bios deserve in my opinion, a BUFF! The transformation does not drop, because then they are close to the other transformations. As is, only TWO races are worse then Bios, Humans (which were DESIGNED to be weak) and Namekians, both of which do better then the Bio in the next tier. Bios with an x8 after 100K are horrifically weak compared to popular races, and their next transformation is the best for... 20K PL! Seriously, they are almost engulfed by better transformations in only a very slim difference. HUMANS get stronger then Bios, the only reason Bios are really good is because of two things. 1 - Customization, Bios have the most traits, and which are customization, people like that! They want their characters to be their own, who wants to go through a character creator where they have lots of choices, but can be DENIED? Here, Bios have their list, and they can not be denied for having a trait (Most of the time). For customization, there has to be both limits, and freedom, to keep people there. 2 - PL bonuses, Bios are the only species other then Majins or Saiyans to get PL buffs for their main characteristic trait. Saiyan zenkai late game could give small bonuses, but ones that mixed with a transformation give insane increases (Late game, lets say the person gets a 5K bonus from Zenkai. That's a 225K bonus if SSJ3 mastered!) Majins get the same bonus as Bios, an increase to their transformation, but Majins get it PERMANENTLY and for EVERY transformation, and to top it off, can do it WHENEVER THEY WANT TO! Bios can only can a power level bonus when they transform, that's it. Bios also only get a transformation bonus for one thread, and it only matters if you less then 100K (Around 100K, any late tier 1 fighter would transform a Bio). So for Bios, its basically just customization, and their unique DNA monster character role. Other then that? Beat everywhere else by other races! Bios are here for some people to who like different races, but don't like some of the other skills, and want a mixer. This was my opinion, thanks for reading ye old block of text.
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Post by Pah'mazhan on May 7, 2015 2:09:17 GMT
I'm playing the necromancer to revive this old but relevant topic.
Yeah, it seems like only bio-android characters are fighting against the nerfs, and that's telling. It seems the site is very neutral toward the whole balancing of the race, or at least are silent on the matter. Bio androids, I feel are versatile, yes, but that doesn't make them more powerful or viable when it comes to battle, where they're supposed to shine.
I don't really have any more points to add, but I feel balancing needs to be done to put them on the same level as Majins and Arcosians, the other two "villain" races that DBZ had to offer. It seems like Saiyans have them outclassed at very nearly every point.
Even the androids, who are touted as "underpowered" at least at first glance seem to blow straight past bio-androids.
Bio-androids and Majins need to be competitive in order to get their transformations, but it's very hard to do that, especially with the proposed changes in this thread.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 7, 2015 2:27:53 GMT
Bio-Androids have some of the nicest transformations in the game. They're high averaging, they have the longest "on top" time next to Arcosians and the most winning peaks. Their lowest valley is a respectable Tier 2 x15, plus they have the best end-middle and a good endgame. This is paid for by the two very challenging bottlenecks they must face and defeat to progress.
I don't think the problem lies so much in Bio-Metabolize, in fact, I think the Bio-Meta is necessary for defeating the 1st of those roadblocks. How is someone with a +x1 at 120,000 PL supposed to defeat and absorb people on their tier level? They'll have to be an extreme opportunist and grab someone far lower than them in a DE, which isn't easy because nearly everyone else in the game will have them beat PL wise by modifiers well before they reach even half that PL.
The only area where I think Bio-Androids need to be corrected is their absorb PL bonus, which is way too much of a boon. someone who absorbs an equal foe at the 120,000 mark will gain 40,000 PL and sail past their Semi Perfect Full Power line. That's near a month worth of RP right there, and far longer for a more casual player. If a B-A achieves an absorb with an equal foe at the 275,000 mark they will gain a whopping 90,000 PL, months of RP work gained in single gulp, propelling them instantly pass their Power-Weighted transform and within sprinting distance of Super Perfect and the endgame. If a B-A pulls this off, they will be bypassing somewhere around 20-25% of the entire game's PL progression.
You're already receiving an RPed PL boost in the form of your new transformation modifiers, why do we need to stack raw PL gains on top of that?
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Reikiko
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Post by Reikiko on May 7, 2015 3:44:06 GMT
You're already receiving an RPed PL boost in the form of your new transformation modifiers, why do we need to stack raw PL gains on top of that? Because we are the only species (aside from Majin to a sense) who can only transform by killing and absorbing another player in a DE/Saga? The lone reason I'm confident that I'll reach my transformation is due to the difference in PL currently, but that doesn't change the fact that most Bios will find themselves trapped in a situation where their targets are SSJ2s and other much stronger opponents, who for all intends and purposes can simply ascend through a decent thread, rather than be exposed to the same 'deathly' situation a Bio is. To lower the raw PL gain to like 20% would still be understandable, but to remove it entirely is downright giving the bios their negative absorb aspects, without keeping any benefits from the absorb aspect.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on May 7, 2015 11:31:08 GMT
I intended to propose a reduction of the 'Perfect' PL percentage boost to 10-20% rather than maintaining it at 33%, due to the increased Base PLs involved in this 'transaction'.
However, I think Semi-Perfect is fine at 33%.
However, I do believe the difficulty of the absorption is being overstated a little here, and I wouldn't shed any tears over the Bio-android losing the static PL boost for either or both transformations.
I do not think that reducing the Bio-Metabolise further is the answer. Other races have between 3-10x 'free' (ignoring stuff like True form's PL gain reduction or Oozaru-moon requirement).
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Post by Hyoza on May 7, 2015 18:30:02 GMT
I could definitely agree to the PL boost from absorbs being reduced, at least on the second absorb. Bio-metabolise should be left alone though, IMO. They need something to help them compete at early game.
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Post by Benetto Giri (Fluentinnerd) on May 14, 2015 3:49:33 GMT
My apologies about adding an additional issue to the problem of balancing bio-androids, but I had an idea that I wished to at the very least bring up. What stops a bio-android from being designed to incorporate other being temporarily rather than permanently, similarly to Canti from the anime FLCL, for instance. Perhaps this could be an alternative method to bio-metabolize, for those who wish for a different method of playing the race than rehashing Cell. Is there any way this idea might work, or would it be too difficult to balance?
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