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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 21:06:39 GMT
Ok so I wanted to start up this discussion thread. This discussion is going to be what it is that we are going to labeling Special Ability Upgrades. As for Special Abilities I am talking about things like the Kohoho, Kienzan, and Moonball.
Pieter brought up all the tags that he believes we should do. Creating a SUV2 or SUU2 for upgrading the attack. Mastered tier techniques would be SUMV3 for the mastered variant and SWMA3 for straightline power increases. These are being brought up as this is a whole new tier of powers as the techniques being placed up here are already a master level.
I am assuming that we will need to figure out if there will be an increased technique slot cost or what the costs of the attack would be to the user and the victim of said attack. Please feel free to talk about what you believe should be allowed for these attacks.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 15, 2015 22:06:44 GMT
In my opinion, Specials are already Special enough. Each is superior to an MP3 in form and function. Upgrading them in magnitude could create very overwhelming or unstoppable techniques.
An upgraded Kikoho for example that follows the standard magnitude increases of 33% would allow for some very imbalanced or unstoppable attacks, including a 1064% PL "final attack".
What would an upgraded Moonball look like, for instance? Increasing magnitude would mean providing a buff on Oozaru, which would certainly be overwhelming. What would an upgraded Kienzan look like? It's already supposed to do greater than MP3 damage.
I think Specials should be standalone [Special] tagged. Increasing their magnitude or their scope could cause an overwhelming runaway effect in how they compete with those who don't have Specials in combat.
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Koramund
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Post by Koramund on Apr 15, 2015 23:53:16 GMT
Maybe, we can forge our own Super Variants? A little off topic, but we put a 4th tech slot into a move like "Darkness Mixer" or "Awakening Light" (Or maybe the Super Variant tag) that does nothing, but a 5th tech slot allows us to make our own special (After being voted by the community)? I think that we should be able to make them ourselves, but one a character. But specials already are almost OP because of their limitation and power.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Apr 16, 2015 0:26:50 GMT
I think what you're describing is kind of what buying an Academy is supposed to award Kora, making an "MP4" or your own Special.
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Post by Alaistair on Apr 16, 2015 0:30:06 GMT
My thought on why I've tagged them as SP1, SPUP2, SPV2, SPUV3, and SPMP3: We're going to see moments where our attacks are boost up to massive levels and, to define Ultimate techniques as a 1 level, but most powerful level, we can show that the Special abilities, while special, can still be worked to have unique abilities. It would make going for royal roles and master roles much more defined than our normal techniques. Identifying real masters should be the ability to take a technique that is rare and make techniques of equal or greater power from those techniques.
Not to mention, in the end, we can also elaborate on the fact that Ultimate-Level Techniques are the very top level techniques that are to be earned used.
However, I do understand the nature of the fact that this could cause the, 'runaway effect,' an effect that is co-relating to the way too powerful format, for those who don't understand what Vi-Poi meant by his statement. Power of this caliber, as is, would make it very unfair to others trying to catch up. This the opposing fact, and it holds a lot of ground.
The end result is if we want to view this as a possibility, and going hand in hand to this, what does that make Ultimates? How strong would those be?
Another thought, though, that I did have in mind with this conjecture is: What if the 'Special technique' had only variants, that dropped its offensive power to 100% from 133% to have a unique effect? A possibility, but a dangerous one at that, as this could mean we have homing and controlled Kienzans and we need to figure out when's the ability going to end, post-wise. Battles can be as short as 5 posts from 2 people (so 10 in total), but be very dynamic, while others can span to 5 pages (and being that that pages have a usual 15 posts per page limit, that makes this 75 posts divided between the two members, which means 1 posts 35 times and another posts 34 times, with an additional from the moderator grading the epic).
So! Putting this into perspective, how do we want to approach this?
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Post by Hyoza on Apr 16, 2015 9:05:14 GMT
I... Don't want to approach this, to be honest. This is a nightmare for balance, and with how much harder it is to get specials in the first place, it would give those who gain access to specials a huge advantage over those who do not.
Plus, unnecessary additional layers of complexity to a system that appeals due to its simplicity. *shrug* Y'all already knew I wasn't gonna go for it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 18:06:15 GMT
Well let me rephrase what it is I am thinking. Why not have something above the mastered level of power but make it a one off ability only. Make it cost two or three techniques instead of just a single technique as mastery of a technique would equal something that is needed. I mean there could be a selection of mastered tier things one could select from.
Ala Android Sensing or being able to sense across galaxies for Ki Sense, Perfect Ki Suppression could be one for that stuff like these could be incentives for people to think of. I mean that you could set up that blast type attack can only gain one of three things a power increase to 133%, A special skill ala homing etc etc.
The thing is that the mods could easily just come up with a list and state that these are the ways the mastered tiers could be. They cost X amount of tech and need an X length thread in order to master this. Make it something that people have to strive toward in order to attain instead of what I mentioned earlier.
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Post by Hyoza on Apr 16, 2015 19:04:22 GMT
What does it really add, in the grand scheme of things? Feels like a lot of work for... A lot more work, tbh. And no real tangible benefits.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 19:19:36 GMT
For myself I can safely say would be having a technique that is distinctly my own variation to those that are iconic to the DBZ universe. I mean pretty much anyone can learn the Kamehameha. There are only so many variations for it when you stop and think about it in canon. But I am putting this up here because we are eventually reach a point where people are going to have techniques that cannot go anywhere do to having nothing to spend it on. This will give people another place to further customize themselves. There is a reason why this is but a discussion and not anything more.
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Post by Hyoza on Apr 16, 2015 19:26:10 GMT
If you want an attack that's a signature of your character, create one. Nobody forces you to use canon abilities. I don't see why we have to introduce a whole new tree of techniques to combat an issue that ultimately boils down to creativity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 19:35:31 GMT
This whole thread came down and was started because I was wanting to change the kienzan to my own flavor. As Turtle MAster I am allowed to have the technique and right now I am wanting to upgrade it to a variant i.e. I am wanting to split it up and use them in conjunction with one another instead of only creating and using one disc. We had no set rules for this nor a set procedure so I placed up the discussion for it.
Also there are only a certain number of ways a blast tech, a shield tech, a explosive centering on yourself, etc etc can be done before everyone techs do kind of meld together.
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Post by Hyoza on Apr 16, 2015 19:55:46 GMT
Introducing new mechanics isn't going to do much to counteract samey-ness of custom techniques. If you want an attack that can split up into multiple fragments and track a single target, that's an upgraded variant.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 17:16:23 GMT
So what about making a single attack that you create for yourself your characters special? I mean we all have created one and the thing would be how would oyu balance the attack against the site itself. I am trying to think outside the box here so that we can have some rather interesting and yet entertaining abilities for everyone.
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Post by President Bao on Apr 18, 2015 2:14:53 GMT
Currently, if you wanted a 'chain kienzan' for example, you would treat is as a 'regular' upgraded variant, as in you flavour it as being disks but damage-wise it is not a special and thus follows the regular tech rules for a [UV3].
The idea is indeed that specials do not upgrade, as they are already unique. You may find interesting ways of flavouring them a little, but mechanically they are set as they are in order to avoid balance issues. I have considered though that maybe racially gifted specials should have some for of tiering. ---
It may sound a little cruel, but as the master of one of the free positions, you're there to be teaching your discipline's special move to others(anyone who buys your dogi is entitled to learn the two regular and finally the special move of that school), rather than some customised version. This is sorta the gotcha of those roles - we give you something cool for free, but it restricts your freedom. It's why they're more intended to be taken by support characters rather than main plot characters (Roshi's rather than Goku's).
We also have the custom masters system for those who want a fully custom special of their own. Actually that reminds me, I should hurry up and add Palaces as they were meant to be the non-teacher way of gaining a special.
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