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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 4:41:02 GMT
Ok, basically we just need to know who thinks a ki blast should be logical in terms of obliterating a body or if it is the victor's choice. This is for whatever race can absorb, idk.
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Post by Toma on Mar 26, 2015 4:43:46 GMT
What I think Axel is trying to say here, is that, should the winner decide if a body should remain after using a planet-busting move?
Or rather, should the move used to grab that kill decide what happens to the body? As in, say, Ninjin used a Super Kamehameha on Toma. We all know what the Kamehameha does, and logically Toma wouldn't have a body left after getting hit by it.
Now let's say Wyntre used Death Beam on Toma. Logically, there would be a body left after Toma died because it is a much smaller, precise beam.
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Mayze
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Post by Mayze on Mar 26, 2015 4:45:44 GMT
I vote No. It is logical that a body would be destroyed by a wave attack that is immensely more powerful than the character.
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itome
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Post by itome on Mar 26, 2015 4:46:05 GMT
The people have decided in a crushing majority vote.
In logic's case, how would this kikoho, being twice the power of Athren not cause vaporization? Would this not be classified as a surprise attack where he's completely unguarded? Point blank, nonetheless. In the series, we've seen multiple instances of vaporization such as Goku blowing off half of Cell's body. The Kikoho is pretty famous for the amount of power it packs. So, how would this not occur on Athren's body?
Is it Athren's fault his opponent chose to use such a destructive move instead of a simple precision move? I think not.
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Pipa
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Post by Pipa on Mar 26, 2015 4:46:48 GMT
Bio-androids will just flavor all of their moves with more careful wording, I am sorry but this is silly. I am sorry if their was any deception in this scenario but for the actual thing being proposed it just seems like nit-picking.
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Post by Bing Gan on Mar 26, 2015 4:46:57 GMT
I'd assume it depends on the attack like Toma said above, Balls, Beams or anything similar aren't too precise so Death by one most likely means you aren't gonna have much left.
It only makes sense from what we know from the Show/Manga, If we want to follow DBZs logic in any way, Disintegration/Obliteration by Ki Blasts/Balls makes sense.
EDIT: It should be noted somewhere that this discussion has been going on for a while in the cbox before this thread was made, so there Is a chance not everyone who has something they want to say on the matter will say it here as they might have already said/vented it on the Cbox beforehand.
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itome
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Post by itome on Mar 26, 2015 4:48:29 GMT
Bio-androids will just flavor all of their moves with more careful wording, I am sorry but this is silly. @pipa That's the point, they shouldn't be carelessly flinging giant blasts of destruction and expect a body to be left behind.
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Pipa
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Post by Pipa on Mar 26, 2015 4:51:31 GMT
Bio-androids will just flavor all of their moves with more careful wording, I am sorry but this is silly. @pipa That's the point, they shouldn't be carelessly flinging giant blasts of destruction and expect a body to be left behind. That is not the problem I highlight, if you blanket statement that basically the loser chooses the status of their body then no one will ever be absorbed.
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Kaval
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Post by Kaval on Mar 26, 2015 4:53:52 GMT
No one is implying that the loser should choose. The argument is that if a character fires a destructive attack, logic should dictate that a body would not be left behind. Or, at least, not much of a body.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 26, 2015 4:58:29 GMT
I think that poll title and options are extremely biased (your question is inverted in the poll answers, and whether or not it is 'logical' in this case is subjective) and a new one needs to be made and voted upon, but I'll give my opinion... There is nothing logical about the effects of DBZ ki blasts. If rules are applied to it, the application will be purely arbitrary. There is no 'science' we can apply to DBZ. There is only subjectivity. There is enough evidence in DBZ lore to say that a strong ki blast can either destroy the body or can not. For instance, Nappa's charged/powerful ki blast against Piccolo engulfed his entire body, but his body remained:
Nappa was at least four times more powerful than Piccolo at this point. So, the lore is ambiguous, and subjective. No one can point to a 'DBZ obliteration metric'. There are times in the series where an opponent takes a huge "power move" ki blast from someone way stronger, and their body is intact, and there are other times where they are obliterated even while at closer percentages. This is because Toriyama didn't draw with a "ki science rule book" next to him. This brings my argument to our game, and fair play. What this argument is about, is can a player choose to have their corpse obliterated, or alternatively, can the community choose to have a corpse obliterated, rather than the fight's victor. This can create all sorts of gameplay issues. It can lead to the outcomes of fights determined by popularity contests. As we are seeing, this will cause the very difficult bottleneck of the Bio-Android's xform progression to turn into a roadblock. Are we going to arbitrate every time a Bio-Android finishes a DE -- already a risky proposition for them? Won't it turn into a popularity contest? If we say "if it's point blank" well, that doesn't make much sense either. Because there is no spatial difference in ki damage here, gameplay wise. If you get hit with an MP3 at 1,000 miles away, it does just as much ki damage as it would at 1 nanometer. And there is competing lore on that score, too. What it boils down to is, should the victor decide? I'd say yes, definitely. Otherwise we'd immediately get situations where someone sours over losing a DE, and throws up obliteration conferences every time they die. And Bio's would be left at a huge disadvantage.
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Post by Pipa on Mar 26, 2015 5:00:41 GMT
And who gets to decide what is logical in a fandom based upon flying monkeymen that shoot laser beams out of their hands and children can be stronger than grown martial arts fighters? I honestly am checked out as is, things are just too volatile.
I am in no way attacking Athren here, I havn't even read the scenario in question. I am just afraid that this path will lead to nowhere but BA's and Majins fluffing every move they make with a disclaimer that it doesn't destroy the body tissue.
Also in Ora vs Koramund we rule more or less unanimously that Kora was able to absorb an Ora who literally blew himself up. So the community already did discuss this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 5:03:13 GMT
Logic all the way. Simple? Because when Android's go for the absorb. The needed a body to absorb. They didn't just go BLOWING everybody up with an overpowered attack.
Sure, some might argue that Cell was blowing up islands in search of 18. How much power did it involve? We don't know, but we know it wasn't charge for how many f**king turns and we KNOW Cell didn't promise her fisticuffs either. Irrelevant, but ranting is healthy.
Seriously, If you want an absorb. Be smart and don't use an OP attack. Derp.
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 26, 2015 5:18:54 GMT
I think we're misusing the word logic, here. Logic implies that there is an underlying metric that assumptions can be built upon. It means the use of reasoning to come to a conclusion. As was shown above, there is no stable reasoning that can be applied to DBZ, as the ki system isn't a system at all, it's whatever caught Toriyama's fancy.
Just as you said Athren, how much power did it involve? How do you know it wasn't enough to obliterate? These are arbitrary and subjective speculation.
The issue is a gameplay one. We shouldn't allow a DE defeated (or by proxy) to decide what happens when they lose, because it will lead to spiteful actions of denying the Bio Android's only opportunity for transformation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 6:08:19 GMT
It included approximately One Million more than Athren's power level. We KNOW this, as it's written in the thread. It's an offensive technique that she over killed. Meaning, It would beable to wipe Athren out and leave nothing behind.
Who's fault is that? Her's. It's definitely not mine. She's the one who charged it and fired it.
Remember, She did say fisticuffs? She deserves to have it backfire on her. And to be honest, I think you're only sticking up for her due to being on the same team.
Right now I feel extremely disrespected and lured. Plus, a Saga isn't supposed to be no shit ten post thread.
Honestly, at first I thought it'd be fun because of the potential. But you killed it, you literally gave NOBODY any options and completely destroyed it. There isn't plot there. People BACKED OUT.
It's also B.S how Rei would pass up on Nin to absorb me?
IF SHE'S SOOO FUCKING STUCK ON TRANSFORMING. It'd make no sense.
It's contradicting.
Regardless, I'm done arguing with you.
I seriously disrespect both you and Rei as of now and I'll never take anything you say seriously again. You're backing up a liar, and she lied. Therefore, We're done here.
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Post by Reikiko on Mar 26, 2015 8:25:41 GMT
So, since I'm being accused of being a liar, without being given a chance to provide my side of the matter, I hope people will at least be fair and give me a chance to explain my side. First, Reikiko initially entered the saga with a single intention: To absorb the strongest potential foe she could get for her ascension. This was stated, quite clearly in my post when I said: For those who have read Reikiko's threads will likely agree that she is pretty intelligent, and usually a clever and tactical person, especially when serious. This right here shows more than enough reason for her to assume that Ninjin is a more morally good type of person, especially considering she cares about the evacuation of the citizen, leading Reikiko to make a decision: Pressure her into a moral decision that involves the refugees, her's and Daiki's survival in exchange for abandoning Athren. At this point, and I'll quote again: Reikiko started charging her Kikoho in an attempt to threaten Ninjin to leave (it's akin to holding someone at gunpoint), and as a potential weapon for Athren, should she be given an opportunity to fight him. In her advantage Ninjin did leave, and Reikiko decided to focus onto her number 1 target. Now onto the aspect of fisti-cuffs. The very reason I even agreed to give you a fisti-cuffs was because you were threatening to leave the site. In case people don't recall that cbox moment, let me provide you with a screenshot. oi61.tinypic.com/dm5fmg.jpgoi61.tinypic.com/2lwx4kp.jpgAt this point I already felt inwardly conflicted about the matter. Would I seriously sacrifice Reikiko's own way of acting, for the sake of giving you that fight you desired? It was even a sacrifice I was willing to make... However, that was until something 'odd' started happening. Two posting rounds in a row you delayed, under the explanation you 'had no muse'. Of course, can happen to everyone (albeit it's odd you had that problem, even when Vipoi already went in to fisti-cuffs you into the fight you desired), but the fact you were constantly asking Orache if he was out of his DE yet, implied to me that you were hoping for him to join you, meta-gaming your way to a victory. In the end I decided to look into this, and curiously enough found that Orache had been indirectly pleading to Wytnre to be spared in his DE. oi59.tinypic.com/2ebxqae.jpgThis, alongside with the fact that according to my knowledge that Naroka is returning from the afterlife next week, I started to ask myself 'There isn't something right here...' and started to regret my idea of letting my ooc kindness, influence my IC actions, and at that moment decided to change my mind. At this point I'm feeling equally betrayed by all those 'signals' I'm receiving, and as a result had decided to keep Reikiko to act the way she would, especially considering you're a high-threat, high-value prey. And there's no way she would engage in a high-risk fight (at least not personality-wise) if she could try to find a better way to finish you quickly. Either way, that's the side of my story.
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