Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 3, 2016 18:02:33 GMT
I love all of your 1st post ideas on Minions and Guards Zuni, I think that will allow the perfect balance between the two. To those saying why can't Minions stay back and guard, well, because they aren't guards, and that'd break the balance between the two.
It'd make high-level Guards actually useful, as long as they can't start DEs or Sagas.
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Feb 3, 2016 19:02:58 GMT
I get the intention to balance things out between them to an extent, but I do not entirely like it as it makes literally no sense from a writing perspective, which I feel should be just as important as this is not just a 'game' where we need to critically balance every aspect of it, its collaborative story telling.
While there is the 'danger' of high powered characters mucking around by having there strong minions sit around on other planets I do not really think that is much of a genuine concern, its not actually any more dangerous than the ALREADY high powered characters existing themselves, 75% Minions cant even hit there 30x if there owner is at 500k it takes hitting 533k to actually achieve that, and considering our progression it is very unlikely a single person will be able to so thoroughly dominate through that.
We already have groups capable of manning multiple planets on both sides of the dark/light spectrum and by the time someones strong enough for there minions to totally overhelm people both sides will also have Players strong enough to contend with those minions and perhaps even people with minions of there own.
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Post by Zuni on Feb 3, 2016 19:15:14 GMT
Groups. Not individuals.
And from a writing perspective, minions/sidekicks are supposed to represent characters you keep with you at all times. Guards are supposed to guard.
It is literally in the name.
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Feb 3, 2016 19:18:51 GMT
The name is irrelevant, you could literally swap the two and it would make no difference. Also you ignored pretty much everything else I said, I stated a lot more than just groups being involved. As well there is no specific 'writing perspective' for what the minions or guards need to be.
Edit: Additionally swapping the names would actually make more sense, 'Minion' tends to be attributed to low-level thug style characters(Of course it can also be attributed to people such as Zarbon/Dodoria sorta dudes), the very epitome of what we have 'Guards' as, meanwhile Guard is a bit more broad in its application.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 3, 2016 19:27:14 GMT
I get your reasoning Habana, but I think that in this instance the mechanics should trump freedom because of the great power Minions could provide relative to Guards. There's plenty of instances we can point to in the design where things are ironed-out mechanically at the expense of some freedom. If a very strong person allows a strong Minion to remain behind, it can create a cheap barrier for low level people that would be much more restrictive than a harder-to-acquire and weaker guard. I don't like the idea of a person being able to lock down planets that easily. Leaving behind a Guard would be a smaller and more expensive defense, but still one worthwhile to those who wish to invest in an empire for themselves. Moreover, this provides two separate functions for the guards and the minions that I find appealing. Minions would be larger boosters for cheaper, Guards would be lower boosters for more expense but have more flexibility. Minions and Guards aren't presented as the same RP thing in the Items description already. Some RP explanations could be: 1) Minions are in your personal entourage / strike force. (like Zarbon/Dodoria etc/Ginyu to Frieza, or Krillin to Goku) 2) Minions are reliant on you for their power. (like Majin Vegeta). Some RP explanations for Guards could be: 1) They're Guards They can be stationed in specific places to guard them. 2) As their low form is much cheaper, they're more of a rank-and-file soldier, like the Frieza Force, mass deployed where needed.
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Feb 3, 2016 19:30:24 GMT
I disagree Vi, because a minion creates no more a barrier for people to operate than an actual character does. Vi-Poi's and Bing's presence on Earth has done literally nothing to stop the rise of characters like the members of SCAR from doing there thing. The cost of actually manning multiple planets with a Minion would also be very expensive.
Edit: The presence of Zucceta, Habana and Mayze has also done nothing to quell the Devil Knights from doing there plotting.
Was Ginyu not off-world while Frieza was doing his thing? Did Krillin not go to Namek while Goku was on Earth healing? If we count it, Did Dodoria not go to Kanassa while Frieza was looming over Vegeta?
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 3, 2016 19:36:06 GMT
Added some more points to my post above. And right, but when we're talking about Saga-prevention, Minions have a very large advantage if they're able to stay behind in places compared to Guard, being usually cheaper per-PL and in most cases far stronger.
What would the advantage of a high-expense Guard be over Minion, currently, if both can go to different worlds? The expense does not commiserate with the independent PL, and I can see only if you're a rare Support-type for them to have any use at all.
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Otto
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Post by Otto on Feb 3, 2016 19:37:01 GMT
I am against minion's requiring a death bill. No other item mechanically dies when it is used other than one use items like senzu beans. 22,500z is a lot of zeni that could have been power level, and depending on where you are at in the game it could be like 40k power level. If someone has a minion, it is very much out of a sacrifice to gains on their part- I don't believe an extra tax should be required. If anything i'd rather see like a week cooldown to replenish your minion pool when lost and not additional zeni taxation- taking a minion is objectively still bad mathematically until you reach malus levels, so I don't see the reason to add restrictions and regulations beyond capping how many minions total you can have.
It also offers up a unique opportunity for high tier characters to interact with lower tiers via proxy. So restricting it to zones is not something I favor. It would be much more satisfying for me to fight against a minion of Vi's in a serious battle than to have Vi use ki setting to keep it from being /thread.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 19:39:50 GMT
Hypothetical Scenario: Vi Poi, at 300k PL, goes to fight Zucceta while she's off planting a tree of might on a planet somewhere. In the meantime, he sends a 75% and a 50% Minion off to go do battle elsewhere. The 75% minion (Sitting at a little over 225K PL with a 10x Trans available) shows up on Vegeta to start slaughtering every Saiyan in sight and with its power is more than capable of giving Habana a run for her money. The 50% minion (sitting at 150K PL, again with 10x trans) traipses off to Namek to go punch Mayze in the face, or maybe one shots Xylo in the back as soon as it enters the thread.
Now, you've got a single character, Vi Poi, who's capable of influencing events in 3 different Sagas on 3 different worlds at once and is basically running the whole show with his minions.
Not allowing Minions to go wandering off to mess with things is something you do for the same reason you don't let someone put 3 alternate characters in the same faction as the first one. One person gets too much influence over the story and everybody else feels like a chump. Guards are different in that they're often much weaker. If the scenario above was replaced with even the highest Guards Habana and Mayze would have handily crushed them. This limits the amount of influence you gain from having NPC minions and focuses the RP back on PCs, which is the whole point of Roleplay, right?
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Feb 3, 2016 19:40:31 GMT
From my reckoning Guards were actually originally meant for more support-y characters, or in the case of the cheaper variants to represent rank and file charcaters. Additional it was discussed that Guards would not actually have a cost associated with replacing them where minions do. Perhaps an increased cost on higher end Minions or a decrease on Guards would make sense.
Additionally who says minions should have the ability to start sagas? I believe Zuni stated that it would be ideal of NO npc could do so and it's a sentiment I agree with. Minions stationed on planets would likely need to be more reactionary without the lead of your character.
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Otto
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Post by Otto on Feb 3, 2016 19:47:06 GMT
The scenario you suggest, Habana is still over 80% and would school that guy. I still believe a 100% cap to the total % of minion you can acquire should be a thing. Guards are just for like... people like Kocha and Tania. If you are planning to gain pl, unless you are just doing it for fun... it isn't really balanced around you.
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Feb 3, 2016 19:53:04 GMT
I mostly agree with you Otto, though Guards are also employed by people like Sanngrior who wants to have a legitimately useful NPC crew in addition to the players who join her, I love the idea of guard, but I dislike the notion that we need to bring down Minions in order to make Guards more special. Guards clearly have there purpose and people have been buying them in spite of there being no hard rules on them being the only ones who can be in other places.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Feb 3, 2016 19:54:31 GMT
The problem is, while Minions can't start sagas, they could still prevent them / join them.
As Katsu pointed out, a strong person with a couple of minions floating around the galaxy could dampen a lot of possibilities for new people to effect change on the story. One of the points of the Saga lockdown besides the death paradox is so that your character can't go womp everything at once, and I feel like this kind of lets people buy that option.
Guards are nice because they're weaker with more expense, so you're more buying deterrence or speed bumps rather than walls.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 19:57:37 GMT
Okay so then Vi Poi sends his minion with another PC, he's still capable of influencing a Saga in 3 places even if the minions cant start them.
Habana being able to fight on equal terms with the minion does not negate the fact that it would be influencing a Saga where Vi Poi isn't. Vi Poi still has the capacity to influence 3 Sagas all on different planets at once in my scenario.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with that last part there Otto.
EDIT: Seriously, give Guards above 50k PL a PURPOSE.
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Feb 3, 2016 20:00:34 GMT
But as I've addressed that argument it doesn't necessarily have a lot of ground, the same people who would own those minions can be the ones who put down those Saga's, the character you could say that 'oh but they might be off world' but we already have a huge problem of people sticking mostly to one world as is, restricting it that minions need to stay with there owner would just make that worse as far as I see it as it would just mean that there will be 2 or 3 monstrously powerful people sitting on a world as opposed to 1.
Edit: Why is is so bad for someone to MAYBE influence multiple saga's? Yes that means someone is throwing around a lot of weight but the cost would be monumental and the posting requirements very detrimental.
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