|
Post by Reikiko on Oct 1, 2015 5:20:54 GMT
Hey everyone, so after doing a bit of Math I noticed one... rather glaring issue in dodging/after-image/Rapid movement techniques.
The fact that right now they are TERRIBLY lacking in balance, not to mention the fact that they cost a lot less KP than a counter-attack or a defensive reaction, will make it become a rather 'means to get out safely of any threat.'
Let me give you all an example of how silly the current use of rapid movement is:
Let's say two equal opponents have 100,000 PL
Player A uses an MP3 what costs 3KP Player B can easily auto-dodge out of there with the use of only a single KP point
Even a Kikoho at 133% power can easily be dodged by an 2KP dodge
At this rate we're literally going to be stuck having to get staff to personally oversee 'dodge' abuse to ensure things remain fair.
Of course one is likely wondering how we can solve this issue? Well simple actually, by introducing a 'charge' possibility to rapid movements.
Suggested new 'dodge' mechanic:
SU1: 50% Of PL dodge SU2: 75% Of PL dodge SU3: 100% of your PL dodge
First my reasoning for those numbers is simple: You're not really supposed to be able to dodge an attack that on terms of speed and power is faster than yourself, at least not without seriously exhausting yourself or being partly hit in the process, this is where 'partial hits' and 'charges' come into play.
First, and important to know is that partial hits function like defending, in the sense that partly dodging an attack lowers it by the value of your PL (dependent on your KP usage, so for example using an SU3 will lower it by 100% of your PL, pretty much meaning that even if you can't dodge an attack entirely, it still be useful in 'reducing' the damage taken. However, this can only count for uncharged dodges (charging defense is more a barrier thing). (not sure about this idea, might need Vi's mechanical input on this)
The second thing is charging a dodge. Charging a dodge, in layman terms means spending additional KP in order to dodge an enemy attack of a higher value than your own PL. For each KP you spend above the 3KP you increase your dodge ability, so for example...
Let's say an enemy is firing an attack at 300% of your PL, that means that you have to use an SU3 + 2 charges (2KP) meaning that after your dodge you will be without ANY KP regain for 2 rounds. This means that while you're still able to dodge an attack vastly superior to your PL, it comes at the cost of exhausting yourself with the rapid movements and leaves you with a technical cost of 5KP (3KP dodge +2 KP charge), this sounds a lot more fair compared to people being able to lolnope dodge attacks that shouldn't be dodged at the difference in PL.
Anyway, that's just my rant why 110>220>330 type of dodges are ridiculous.
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Oct 1, 2015 5:48:58 GMT
I mean, I feel pretty solidly that our dodging system is fine as it is. In dodging an attack, you reduce your counter options for that turn. Defense is an important part to extending combat and allowing RP to flow. The ease of after-image is, in part, due to the previous problem of MP3 spam by pretty much everyone.
|
|
|
Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 1, 2015 5:57:43 GMT
What if, instead, it were 50%, 100%, 200%? It'd offer the compatibility with both worlds. Tier 1 dodging wouldn't be so powerful and, if you're really trying to not die, you'd take more risk to counter attack if you go with a Tier 2 or Tier 3 dodge, depending on the level of opponent.
|
|
|
Post by Reikiko on Oct 1, 2015 6:10:21 GMT
50>100>200 Would be more doable, my main issue with the current dodge system is that it literally will all boil down onto fairplay, because any 'big attack' can be easily dodged with the current system, at a much cheaper cost than the actual attack that was initiated.
Let's use Kikoho again to showcase a more extreme example.
If you use two uses of the Kikoho that's 266% damage, keeping in mind that the Kikoho causes backlash, and this charge in essence costs 4KP, an opponent could easily dodge it with a 3KP use. The only way that you're able to 'avoid' the issue is if you 'gang up on people' due to the fact that they be forced to dodge the most dangerous attack.
However, also keep in mind that dodging puts you on an advantage in 1 vs 1 combat, since your 'lesser use of KP' will allow you to dodge + attack the next round without any problem in the current system (imagine an enemy dodging an MP3, what means you'll have 2KP to fire at an enemy after your dodge, while your MP3 fired opponent is gonna be stuck without any tech options.
It sounds like we're about to replace the MP3 spam with a dodge spam.
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Oct 1, 2015 6:15:59 GMT
That's the deliberate risk associated with big attacks that you have qualms with.
|
|
|
Post by Reikiko on Oct 1, 2015 6:23:24 GMT
Small attacks (Variants for example) have it even worse, they can be dodged even more easily. What I have qualms with is that dodging is the 'go to for all reactions', and is far from equalized to offensive counters or defensive techs.
I mean, why would someone even consider countering or putting up a barrier if they can easily dodge out of the way? Since there isn't any cap on dodging.
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Oct 1, 2015 6:30:23 GMT
I feel like your suggestion will just immediately balance it in the opposite direction. Barriers and such have uses for group defenses, and please define 'offensive counters' for me.
|
|
Vi-Poi
Administrator
Premier of Earth
PL: 434,410
Soul(x40P), Overdrive(x43)
Zeni: 1,247
Tag: @vipoi
Posts: 2,833
|
Post by Vi-Poi on Oct 1, 2015 6:30:31 GMT
I think that the numbers active today might be slightly in favor of dodge, but before that we were literally having one round fights.
One thing I think we could do is actively police people who are too dodge happy. Even if KP allows it, there is a certain smell test that people should pass. This isn't a video game, and combat is supposed to be a give and take respecting the 65/80.
I'd also like to see people use shield/deflect SUs to give more to their defenses. Given the state of dodge, there would be little reason to throw up a barrier (unless you are protecting others), so I think it'd be neat to take a look at buffing that. Mechanically, we're saying that your KP is part of your defense, just like it's part of your offense.
|
|
|
Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 1, 2015 6:37:58 GMT
The idea still would be applied in the 50%, 100%, 200% dodge scaling. Equal footing example coming up (not gonna put the pls.).
Ex: Player 1 begins charging a UP2 (66% power level) at the target. This leaves Player 2 with several options.
1) Power challenge/Clash the attack.
2) Re-Position via dodge technique of equal caliber (in this case, UP2=SU2). Assault from another angle at Player 1 with N1 ability. This can lead to a counter attack by Player 1 by either firing the ability at Player 2 by re-positioning themselves, but would they be able to get the attack in time? Ruling would be needed here to determine this.
3) Re-Position via dodge technique, then hide with Ki Suppression or Android trait. Force Player 1 to cease charging. Game goes to cat and mouse, with someone either rushing KP charge via charging (I believe we made Ki charge into a common thing, in that it generates 2 KP, yes?) or stalling out in hiding. This leads into a loop real quick.
4) Wait. This path would result in Player 2 effectively losing the war of attrition, for letting Player 1 charge his UP2 (or V2/Variant, as I believe that used 2 KP as well) to the point Player 2 must then use a SU3 dodge technique. Reason for this victory of attrition is because Player 1 can then quickly sense out the target or scan for the target with a scouter and use a N1 ability to assault Player 2. This leads Player 2 having to recognize this was a bad move, but it was a risk he decided to take.
There are more explanations that can come with this, but rather than focus on MP3, I decided that bringing into the image of what a UP2 or a V2 brings to the table, so that people can understand the idea of strategically choosing what level technique to fight with against someone of equal caliber. However, the options change when you have someone the 65%-79% (it was this number, right?) area, where battles aren't exactly equal, as one player is decently more powerful than another or however many people it is to equal this percentage in a thread (I'm assuming that if everyone fires in the SAME SPOT, that the person simply needs to dodge the combined amount and figure out how to strategically flip the table on multiple players.).
Thoughts on this?
|
|
Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
|
Post by Zucceta on Oct 1, 2015 6:39:22 GMT
I think you missed out a ki, relevant part of offensive techniques, Rei; you can charge offensive techniques. Zanzoken's have a fixed % they can dodge up to (with a su3, 320%). For most techniques, you can keep going indefinitely, though Kikoho (which is being raised suspiciously often) does arguably cap at a 532%.
|
|
|
Post by Reikiko on Oct 1, 2015 14:47:11 GMT
mmm, I'm raising Kikoho as a subject mostly since it has the largest damage value, and can still be dodged for the most part. The main issue is that Zanzoken's literally allow you to nullify attacks for a lesser KP value than the attack (what would make more sense if both were equal)
Since charging an attack means not gaining any new KP, it's technically still an advantage for dodging. I mean I guess you could do a charged variant, but that's literally the only way to beat a dodge.
|
|
|
Post by Natto on Oct 1, 2015 17:10:25 GMT
I'm with rev on this one. I think the dodging techniques do more good than bad, and help balancing things. And it cannot be charged. Makes no sense, in my humble opinion to allow a charged dodge. I see the dodge as we use here as a burst of speed, pretty much like an explosion, where you go beyond your limits to dodge an attack, therefore you lose KP, and you can lose quite a lot, depending on the tier. Meaning that if you focus solely on dodging, you won't be able to attack, so that's the catch!
|
|
|
Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 1, 2015 21:05:10 GMT
Last night, I came up with this thought... Why're we simplifying rapid movement techniques as simply just defensive? Rapid movement techniques are labeled under a support field and have both offensive AND defensive abilities, but only in terms of strategy. Here's a situation I came up with last night that's got me inquiring about this, altogether:
Player 1 is engaging either one or multiple targets that effectively put him and these persons on equal terms, in regards to power. The player(s) begin charging an attack. Before they unleash their respective attack(s), Player 1 proceeds to perform rapid movement technique to a new area... Say, SU1 level, as the attack(s) are equal to 110%-120% (I forgot what the number was, but lemme get to the point). He uses this technique to get RIGHT BEHIND them... Or at a angle that would have to force a player to actually have been charging a variant ability that allows them to redirect themselves to face the target to unleash their attack on said person...
Whose to say that it can't be used to actually catch someone off guard, that happens to be charging an attack, regardless of technique level?
|
|
|
Post by Hyoza on Oct 11, 2015 18:14:09 GMT
Dodges can't be charged, offensives can. There is the balance, already built into the system.
|
|
Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
|
Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Oct 11, 2015 21:50:49 GMT
We're simplifying it as defensive only because 'catching people off guard' should be a narrative tool not a mechanical one. This isn't a tapletop rpg and we don't need a hard system in place for every possible action a character can take.
I think dodges are fine as is because I think there needs to be a suitable counter to level 3 attacks. They are meant to be high risk/high reward moves. Despite Vi Poi saying we should steer away from treating it like a fighting game Imma use Street Fighter as an example cause I'm a rebel. In Street fighter, ultra combos are generally the strongest move one can use but they are limited to 1 to 2 times per match (generally) These Ultra moves usually have complex set ups for the ability to reliably catch your enemy in them for maximum style points and damage. Though it takes some planning and reading your opponent the pay off is generally worth while. Compare that to the newbie mistake of "mashing" ultras randomly (throwing them out without any thought) when a newbie mashes an ultra it is (generally) dodged easily and (generally) punished harshly by better players. Capcom didn't buff ultras to be unblockable or impossible to dodge for the sake of mashers they told them to git gud and not rely on Ultras.
So what I'm trying to say is git gud and don't rely on ultras. If you must use an ultra make sure you're in a position where it'll work. It's not impossible to land an MP3, it's hard on equal footing but that's how it should be IMHO. There needs to be significant risks vs rewards
|
|