Zod
Newcomer
Tag: @zod
Posts: 44
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Post by Zod on Sept 15, 2015 18:07:25 GMT
First, I'd like to say "good job on implimenting new systems!"
As a new member to the board, I'm also an 18 year vet of various types (mainly dragonball) of play by post roleplays. I thought I'd use a little bit of my knowledge just to toss out some ideas that may help a few of the ongoing suggestions that I saw.
The first was an update on races in order to lower extreme powerlevel gains. This is another good job, mainly in noticing it!
A lot of boards let the insane numbers they came up with at the beginning be solidified throughout the lifetime of their roleplay. After I saw the suggestion (which I have no idea where it is now) I immediately remembered a few of the older board's solutions and thought I'd offer them up.
1. All races should have a set maximum transformation multiplier. That is, every race should have the same maximum multiplication and the same maximum PL requirement at their final transformation. This maximum multiplication is usually between 12 and 20 2. In order to keep originality with the transformations, the powerlevel in which each multiplier could possibly be obtained and their benefits besides powerlevel should be unique. 3. A rather interesting idea, I have seen a few boards offer significant abilities in place of one or two off of the maximum multiplier. For example, a demon's final transformation grants them great resistence to physical damage, but instead of receiving a x15 like other races do they only receive x13. 4. I have actually rarely seen androids ever have transformations. Instead, they have unlimited and highly expensive upgrades. Examples of what these can be on this board is a constant damage reduction at all times from a magnetic field, additional maneuver slots, and 360 degree awareness (no blind spots and impossible to surprise) I've also seen things like launching kai blasts from the back and small, automatic repair bots for metal parts (androids are actually cyborgs but the similarities got screwed up in english translations, so the story goes) ---------
Another suggestion that I saw was giving beginners and villians a boost to their PL gains. Unfortunately, this is generally not a good idea because of the amnisty that the higher PL players tend to gain towards the ease of players catching up to them when they worked long and hard for their position. A quick fix for this is seperating players into three catagories: High, Low, and Beginner PLs. You then make a chart of where characters are on the list so that lower players have target goals such as getting into a different bracket or getting to the top of their chart. In these cases, beginners would be those that have only been approved within the last month and the High and Low charts would be a 50/50 split between the currently recognized active players. If you want to give even more incentives, you can further catagorize players by their rankings as goodly characters and non-goodly characters. If the staff is really dedicated, I've even seen rankings by race. -------
Some other things I've seen done that may prove useful: --
First, if you want to even the playing field yet still give new players a boost so they don't feel like it's impossible to catch the front pack, make the beginner's post worth more, maybe even double the benefits, instead of making every post worth more until they show significant improvement. --
Next, how roleplays are graded should always be out there in the open. This is mainly because it eliminates any ability to refute what PL gain a player receives, regardless of the situation. This is especially important in a democratic system considering its importance. --
Right now, PL is the only standard by which someone is judged. It is one of the main stamples and probably something several people have tried to change with no avail. This is understandable. Though some might not understand, the additional work staffers are given when you include stat gains, the complexity of combat, and trying to change a strong ideal of the board can reek havoc on every system. However, there are several different statistics that can come into play during a battle. Rather interesting, powerlevel is actually the sum of all these statistics added into one; not directly related to kai, not directly related to mental or physical stats, but an overall sum. Because of this, I believe that identifying about 5 different statistics and then allowing a player to choose their strengths and weaknesses might be worth while.
For an example, "Str: 25%, Spd: 10%, Ki: 15%, Int: 15%, Sta: 35%."
This is one of the main reasons why ki battles and physical fights don't always go the way of the one with higher PL, which works great with your 120%-100%-80% break down. Someone of 80% can have a higher statistic than someone at 100% and, if using this advantage properly, can actually do rather well with someone that is only 20% stronger. There are several moments in the manga that this can be expressed. However, the easiest one to pick out is the battle between Freiza and Goku. Goku actually had lower PL than Freiza when she charged up to 100%, yet Goku still beat her/him (looks like a her, called a him) by waiting for Freiza's stamina to run out before launching his full assault. Other examples would be Vegeta's superior strength to goku, yet great inferiority in kai control, the reason why Vegeta always seems to have the advantage at close range fights but the moment Goku takes a few steps back he's always at the mercy of Goku's untouchable Ki. One of the questions remain, how would this system be implimented with characters that have already improved as well as new players? The quick fix is having approved characters send an update and the new system added to the character creation sheet.
There are several other ideas that I could add but I think I want to start working on my character ^-^
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Post by Hyoza on Sept 15, 2015 18:41:10 GMT
no
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Zucceta
Administrator
PL: 379,083
Oozaru(x10) MSSj(x15) S.Ooz(x22) SSj2(25x)
Zeni: 2290
Tag: @admin
OOC Name: therevolution
Posts: 2,309
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Post by Zucceta on Sept 15, 2015 18:41:19 GMT
I don't have time to address this whole thing now, but we definitely will not be adding multiple statistics. We are, rather, debating how reduce the PL statistic further so we can try to focus on story.
Perhaps try to use our current systems a little first?
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Zod
Newcomer
Tag: @zod
Posts: 44
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Post by Zod on Sept 15, 2015 19:31:23 GMT
twas simply an idea. In no way was I trying to force a change to your current systems. After all, if it's been working till now than it should continue to work.
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Sept 15, 2015 21:12:14 GMT
I'm gonna be honest I've been rping for probably far too long. Since at least 2000 (Started on those Neopets forums baby) I'm one of the few folks that still remembers what Avidgamers was for example. In all that time though this is probably one of the most active forums I've come across. The admins are doing something right. I suggest playing a bit and getting a feel for how this place kind of operates, suggestions are always welcome but I feel like you should get some context beforehand you know? Especially when it comes to mechanics and such.
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Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
Zeni: 849
Shoki: 2,965
Tag: @gagelange10
OOC Name: Gage
Posts: 1,232
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Post by Mayze on Sept 15, 2015 21:19:49 GMT
All interesting ideas Zod, but they aren't right for this fourm. The reason why I think we have so many people, is because it's very simple. We aren't really focused too much on the mechanics, rather, the story. Still, it was great of you too suggest some ideas!
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Zod
Newcomer
Tag: @zod
Posts: 44
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Post by Zod on Sept 15, 2015 23:52:33 GMT
I'll make sure to simply keep my head low from now on, thanks for the input.
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Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
Zeni: 849
Shoki: 2,965
Tag: @gagelange10
OOC Name: Gage
Posts: 1,232
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Post by Mayze on Sept 16, 2015 0:10:42 GMT
I'll make sure to simply keep my head low from now on, thanks for the input. Na, we encourage you too suggest things! No need to keep your head low.
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Nicolas Mclendon
Moderator
The Hero of the Cosmos: CAPTAIN NOVA!
PL: 145,482
Intense Struggle (x3); X-Factor (x6); Amazing Captain Nova (x16)
Zeni: 2336
Tag: @nicolas
OOC Name: Nicolas
Posts: 1,010
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Sept 16, 2015 3:29:48 GMT
I'll make sure to simply keep my head low from now on, thanks for the input. Yeah no need for that, suggestions always are welcome just as I said you should play a bit and feel it out first. I honestly look forward to hearing them
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Sept 16, 2015 4:15:34 GMT
You're providing a suggestion in the suggestion area... This is a fine thing to do!
As someone who's been on here for and has been an administrator for... What is it, 2 years now? Anyway, for some amount of time since the site's creation, I've found that the combat's free style forum, with the adjustments we've had currently, has been very indulgent of what we can and can not do. Of course, not all combat forums are perfect, but we get to have that freedom of adjusting and figuring out 'what works and what doesn't.'
As the others have said: Give this place a shot first! If there's something you're finding off putting, put up a thread here that may allow for players to get a good idea and we can get things figured out, if it is needed or not. Be mindful of everyone's opinions (as we've had I don't know how many people do that too much in the past that's broken down into petty arguments.). Mind you, there's gonna be brick walls that are gonna be hard to work with, but, it is still possible with time and patience.
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Post by President Bao on Sept 17, 2015 3:12:26 GMT
Don't be perturbed Zod, (especially not by Hyoza, who will be receiving an infraction strike in our public warnings board for that particular response. Such rudeness is not acceptable, regardless of any real world issues you may or may not be going through.), I made this forum as a place where we actively welcome people to discuss and share ideas. There is never such a thing as a bad idea, or a wrong idea, as even if an initial concept does not work it can inspire further iterations or counter-ideas in an evolutionary community-based process. Not only that but by discussing and engaging everyone learns new things, and gets a better understanding of the mechanics goals and objectives of a given design, or of flaws other people have witnessed. Concepts being presented, supported with evidence and analysis, and held up under public scrutiny in a similar sort of way to how scientific theory works - That way, the better options always present themselves. In terms of your proposal itself, a focus area of this site has indeed been to try and maintain simplicity as some others have noted. Ultimately people play games like this to make a cool fan character and write their story with others (very few people actively enjoy doing math ). When it comes to 'fighting' there is only one thing which needs to be known - who should win. RPG stat systems obfuscate this behind a number of variables, but ultimately when you unwrap the entire operation it becomes a simple parity test (is number A bigger than number B). Thus, we have ‘power level’, our one defining combat currency which you can ‘flavour’ story wise however you like (eg. maybe you are super fast, or extra durable, or specialise in ki blasts). We also have techniques and such, but you get the idea and that's kind of a whole other topic to itself.
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Zod
Newcomer
Tag: @zod
Posts: 44
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Post by Zod on Sept 18, 2015 9:12:09 GMT
my proposal, itself, was 4 different ideas of what you could do to average out characters so that everything is fair and equal.
Another idea that I presented was to insure that no character has an unfair advantage, regardless of if they are good, evil, new, or old.
I followed up this idea by presenting an additional idea to increase participation of both lower PL members and higher PL members without giving any singular or small faction an advantage over the others.
Because the board is looking for way to speed up early character progression, I then gave an idea on that.
I also made sure to state that if a board is truly democratic that there should be no secret formulas to the backbone of your mechanics.
After ALL of those ideas, 8 total, I gave you a single idea about how the board could explain its mechanics of weaker characters standing a chance against stronger characters. That was it. It's an idea with simple mathematics behind it to help people understand why a stronger character lost to a weaker one.
So far, out of all the replies, a few people have outright rejected everything without an explanation or completely ignored all 8 original ideas and only commented on the single idea of having an actual combat system to back up the "if someone is within 20% pl to someone else, they still stand a chance" remark.
Right now, as it stands, I simply came in and gave you some good ideas. What I was welcomed too? Evidence that democracy is a far cry from what this board stands for.
I'll keep my head low and roll with the punches. I don't like having to dodge unnecessary swings.
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Post by Kaula on Sept 18, 2015 10:44:27 GMT
The majority said no. Pretty sure that's democracy for me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2015 12:18:27 GMT
1. All races should have a set maximum transformation multiplier. That is, every race should have the same maximum multiplication and the same maximum PL requirement at their final transformation. This maximum multiplication is usually between 12 and 20
Doesn't seem fair considering some races start weaker than others. Also I don't think they are going to gut the entirety of the current transformation tiers to lower things down to 20, it just isn't reasonable to think that they would do that.
2. In order to keep originality with the transformations, the powerlevel in which each multiplier could possibly be obtained and their benefits besides powerlevel should be unique.
I don't understand, but I think you are saying you want every race to get multipliers at different times. This is already a thing as far as I can tell. If you mean on a per player basis that would be too much work.
3. A rather interesting idea, I have seen a few boards offer significant abilities in place of one or two off of the maximum multiplier. For example, a demon's final transformation grants them great resistence to physical damage, but instead of receiving a x15 like other races do they only receive x13.
This is already a thing. A bulking tech will increase your offense pl by +1 and lower your defense pl by -3. Many of the races have offset offense/defense (see Majin and Hybrids).
4. I have actually rarely seen androids ever have transformations. Instead, they have unlimited and highly expensive upgrades. Examples of what these can be on this board is a constant damage reduction at all times from a magnetic field, additional maneuver slots, and 360 degree awareness (no blind spots and impossible to surprise) I've also seen things like launching kai blasts from the back and small, automatic repair bots for metal parts (androids are actually cyborgs but the similarities got screwed up in english translations, so the story goes)
I think this is a thing already as well, other than removing them from the transformation tiers altogether. I would vote no on removing them from it completely because it would be difficult to balance, it is much easier to balance things when they are following the same general acquisition methods. ---------
Another suggestion that I saw was giving beginners and villians a boost to their PL gains. Unfortunately, this is generally not a good idea because of the amnisty that the higher PL players tend to gain towards the ease of players catching up to them when they worked long and hard for their position. A quick fix for this is seperating players into three catagories: High, Low, and Beginner PLs. You then make a chart of where characters are on the list so that lower players have target goals such as getting into a different bracket or getting to the top of their chart. In these cases, beginners would be those that have only been approved within the last month and the High and Low charts would be a 50/50 split between the currently recognized active players. If you want to give even more incentives, you can further catagorize players by their rankings as goodly characters and non-goodly characters. If the staff is really dedicated, I've even seen rankings by race.
This isn't a bad idea, but I think honestly the whole power gap thing is unavoidable and not worth the attention it is receiving. If one powerful player keeps going into the DE's of weaker characters eventually other powerful characters are going to use that as a bait to wreck them. No one is forcing people to enter DE's either.
Also some people would totally abuse a time based bonus gain system by prewriting a mass load of threads to post before the monthly check moves them into another pl bracket. The exploit would be as simple as writing huge solo posts for a few months before apping the character. -------
Some other things I've seen done that may prove useful:
--
First, if you want to even the playing field yet still give new players a boost so they don't feel like it's impossible to catch the front pack, make the beginner's post worth more, maybe even double the benefits, instead of making every post worth more until they show significant improvement.
No additional comment. --
Next, how roleplays are graded should always be out there in the open. This is mainly because it eliminates any ability to refute what PL gain a player receives, regardless of the situation. This is especially important in a democratic system considering its importance.
There is a thread about how gains work more or less. I don't agree that the math of it needs to be public, you can more or less figure out what your average pl per word is after a few posts and a little bit of division. --
Right now, PL is the only standard by which someone is judged. It is one of the main stamples and probably something several people have tried to change with no avail. This is understandable. Though some might not understand, the additional work staffers are given when you include stat gains, the complexity of combat, and trying to change a strong ideal of the board can reek havoc on every system. However, there are several different statistics that can come into play during a battle. Rather interesting, powerlevel is actually the sum of all these statistics added into one; not directly related to kai, not directly related to mental or physical stats, but an overall sum. Because of this, I believe that identifying about 5 different statistics and then allowing a player to choose their strengths and weaknesses might be worth while.
For an example, "Str: 25%, Spd: 10%, Ki: 15%, Int: 15%, Sta: 35%."
This is one of the main reasons why ki battles and physical fights don't always go the way of the one with higher PL, which works great with your 120%-100%-80% break down. Someone of 80% can have a higher statistic than someone at 100% and, if using this advantage properly, can actually do rather well with someone that is only 20% stronger. There are several moments in the manga that this can be expressed. However, the easiest one to pick out is the battle between Freiza and Goku. Goku actually had lower PL than Freiza when she charged up to 100%, yet Goku still beat her/him (looks like a her, called a him) by waiting for Freiza's stamina to run out before launching his full assault. Other examples would be Vegeta's superior strength to goku, yet great inferiority in kai control, the reason why Vegeta always seems to have the advantage at close range fights but the moment Goku takes a few steps back he's always at the mercy of Goku's untouchable Ki. One of the questions remain, how would this system be implimented with characters that have already improved as well as new players? The quick fix is having approved characters send an update and the new system added to the character creation sheet.
Having a bunch of different stats to track is annoying and for the most part hurts rather than helps. With multiple stats someone will figure out what the most optimal couple of builds are and that will be what most serious players will emulate. All it would do is increase a margin of error for those who don't research the system who end up picking up sub-optimal stat builds.
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Zod
Newcomer
Tag: @zod
Posts: 44
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Post by Zod on Sept 19, 2015 4:50:42 GMT
yay, an actual reply!
Doesn't seem fair considering some races start weaker than others. Also I don't think they are going to gut the entirety of the current transformation tiers to lower things down to 20, it just isn't reasonable to think that they would do that.
right now, the races are being modified over because some are weaker than others. The reason why I suggested to lower the transformation amount is because it simplifies how to make the races more equal. For an example of what things are like right now: A Saiyan in his final mastered transformation would need 500,000 base PL and receive a 45x multiplier. basic math shows that this would be 22.5 million PL (yeah, that's alot when you consider someone with 1m can blow up a planet) while only having a base PL of .5 mill. Humans receive an additional 5x multiplier over a saiyan. This would make their final transformation grant them 25 million PL. By the boards rules of who stands a chance against who in combat, a human and a sayian would have a different percentage of 10% in the favor of the human, meaning they would still be pretty much a dead heat. However, lets wait till a saiyan has a base pl of 4,500,000 vs a human who has 3,500,000 PL. The saiyan would have a whopping PL of 202.5 mill. The human would have a PL of 175 mill. By percentage rules, even though the saiyan has trained to become a whole 1 million PL above the human, the final form difference is! 13.4% in the saiyan's favor. Basically, how high your end transformation is determines who is the strongest in the end even with a difference of 5. Regardless of strengths and weaknesses in the beginning, x5 is a huge number. I'd take a transformation that gives me 5x more PL over just about all the boosts you could muster, even if it took me twice as long to get it!
I don't understand, but I think you are saying you want every race to get multipliers at different times. This is already a thing as far as I can tell. If you mean on a per player basis that would be too much work.
You almost understood that one 100% The idea you are refering to here was something I added in so people would know that, even if the end multiplier is the same, each race can still have its own refreshing differences to tell them apart.
This is already a thing. A bulking tech will increase your offense pl by +1 and lower your defense pl by -3. Many of the races have offset offense/defense (see Majin and Hybrids).
I was talking about abilities that come WITH your transformation, not a unique trait that they are all given at the beginning ^-^ Again though, this is just something I thought would be interesting to consider.
I think this is a thing already as well, other than removing them from the transformation tiers altogether. I would vote no on removing them from it completely because it would be difficult to balance, it is much easier to balance things when they are following the same general acquisition methods.
over 18 years, I've seen many boards come and go. I've also seen ones where androids were given transformations and they were abused so bad that it wasn't worth being anything but an android (gaining 30x multiplier with the transformation and then stacking it on top of crap like reinforced body plating, 5x greater strength add on, etc). The best system for androids I've seen gave them a full list of purchasable equipment along with customs, but eliminated transformations all together. An andriod could purchase equivilents to transformations but most of them had to be replaced after so many thread uses.
This isn't a bad idea, but I think honestly the whole power gap thing is unavoidable and not worth the attention it is receiving. If one powerful player keeps going into the DE's of weaker characters eventually other powerful characters are going to use that as a bait to wreck them. No one is forcing people to enter DE's either.
Also some people would totally abuse a time based bonus gain system by prewriting a mass load of threads to post before the monthly check moves them into another pl bracket. The exploit would be as simple as writing huge solo posts for a few months before apping the character.
*claps* you completely understand that powergaps are an inevitable portion of a roleplaying board! You also know that the more you focus on it the more it'll blind you to more important things that should be looked over! Now that needs a vote for president.
I am also aware of your exploit system of writing a crap ton off board and then posting it when the boosts are best. I also know that you can get PL faster by ignoring that and just RPing as much as possible. Basically, since you are focusing only on posting when the boosts are best you lose out on the fast spars, saga participation benefits, loose and stress free trainings, etc. Even better? If your character isn't approved... all that crap you did was for nothing ;.; (yeah I've had this happen to me) On this board, even if there was a great early period to gain PL, it would be much better not to spend the effort as there is no defining max or minimum you can be given for a roleplay... you may hit the top and keep writing 15 additional pages of text that aren't even reviewed x.O;
ALSO, the different brackets I made up was more for giving people realistic challenges. When you see your number go from 8th in the middle pack to 6th in the middle pack you suddenly feel more motivated to take the top spot, or challenge yourself to go for the top bracket! On the other hand, the bracket shows just how tight the fight for top spot is so you'll see more participation from bottom teir players to not only keep their spots on the top group list but also to gun for the strongest!
The previous posts mentioned that ideas revolving around PL might negatively influence the focus on plot and I have no arguement against that; participation does not equal better stories.
No additional comment.
arigato
There is a thread about how gains work more or less. I don't agree that the math of it needs to be public, you can more or less figure out what your average pl per word is after a few posts and a little bit of division.
being "open for view" and "people caring" are two extremely different things x.O; On Dragonball Shintai, a lot of people complained because roleplays that were half as long got just as much PL. That was when we learned that 2 of the graders were in college for creative writing and the other was already a published novelist. Instead of grading sheerly by word count, they included quality with a break down of what quality meant. The length of a roleplay was only 2 out of a possibility of 10 points that included things like spelling, grammar, story elements, interest, and a lack of fluff. They actually took someone's work and summarized it in 1/3rd the wording while making it sound BETTER than before. After that, there was a surge of people roleplaying with a focus on interest rather than bland training... a few people actually archived their characters and made ones they could focus souly on story for. This is why it is sometimes important to toss out in the open exactly how things are graded.
Having a bunch of different stats to track is annoying and for the most part hurts rather than helps. With multiple stats someone will figure out what the most optimal couple of builds are and that will be what most serious players will emulate. All it would do is increase a margin of error for those who don't research the system who end up picking up sub-optimal stat builds.
First, there is no "tracking" with the small system I tossed up there. You decide on your percentages before hand and done!
Second, the most optimal build is always to increase your speed to levels that are indomitable in comparison to others, especially with a play by post board. However, each build has its weaknesses. An example to how increasing your speed can be fatal, sacrificing strength can make it so that a sustainable shield is unbreakable no matter how fast or how many times you can hit it... basically, lacking in any stat can have fatal flaws against anyone with the right maneuvers to counter it, but not having some stats increased means you'll be easy pickings against anyone with more PL than you. Just based on those 5 statistics, I can come up with 1 move combined with any combo of stats to completely null any optimal build you make. It simply makes combat more entertaining.
However, once again, it was stated that I should try out what is already hear before trying to toss out an idea that major. and thus!
Thank you, Kobal, for actually taking the time to read through everything. I actually feel like me kindly tossing out some ideas had an affect other than everyone throwing up their middle finger at the prejudged, cocky new guy x.x; (even if I am a bit cocky at times, ha ha ha)
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