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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 13, 2015 1:22:42 GMT
That's an idea I can get behind, considering the idea that Demons and characters that are Mashin-jin would be in different categories brought up earlier. Hmm... I can see a lot of players immediately going to wrath because of the instant 120xbase pl modifier and not enough players going for the Narcissistic approach or Greed Approach, which can be a problem. This would mean that they'd immediately be the End game kings, in terms of immediate power... What if it could charge up to 300% after 2 posts and couldn't be charged further? Meaning it'd be 150% of their power post 1, then 300% post 2? It can give them a more balanced approach, should they try to instantly nuke someone in the face (which we've been trying to avoid with KP so far.).
As you also said, this in turn begs the question of what do we do with Hybrids to make the possibly able to get these benefits without breaking the game?
My thought approach points to the following:
Wrath: Have to charge 75% per post instead of 150%. Meaning, they'd have to charge for 4 turns to match a Demon's post 2 power. They could have a longer charging MP3 or they could simply go with a MP3 and try to work it there.
Narcissistic: 50% per post, but there's still the ability to heal and block attack(s) that are directed at their faces. This would probably make the Hybrids deviate more towards this than the other 2.
Makyo Star: So, this is gonna be a double whammy here, in that I'm going to explain what I've got in mind for Full Demons first. They get +3 to all transformations instead of a +2. This would mean that Hybrids get a +1.5, putting them at a Maximum 45.5 or 46.5, depending on the route that they take.
Granted, the Hybrid setup for Hybrids following their parent transformation path needs some reworking, but that's a discussion for another time.
Long story short: That idea is acceptable, but I still think they could use an overall kit to gain, to make them acceptably good. Perhaps just having all three as potential thing would suffice more-so than just choosing one of the three.
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Oct 13, 2015 3:34:50 GMT
As disappointed as I am that hybrids get nothing with this, it does mean well. However, I'll visit that myself another time... For full blooded demons, I think that this is good but the difference between one instance 300% skill and having an extra +2 to a trans modifier seems a little crazy compared to getting a SU3 Healy barrier. That works once. As it appears, they seem pretty scaled in terms of power like this: +2 to trans > 300% single attack > single Healy barrier. I think I can guess who will choose what everytime lol The barrier can be charged unlike the attack which effectively makes it a free MP3 Barrier that ALSO has healing capabilities. The transformation boost is certainly useful but limited in when it can be used so not always something someone will choose, the attack is useful and powerful, but unchargeable which means it could theoretically be overpowered, heck it could be overpowered by another demon utilizing the barrier! They all seem pretty balanced overall to me, will people be more likely to choose the attack or transformations? Probably. But thats a symptom of people being generally more focused on directly offense oriented powers most likely.
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Post by Maeve Rakshasa on Oct 13, 2015 7:00:27 GMT
That's an idea I can get behind, considering the idea that Demons and characters that are Mashin-jin would be in different categories brought up earlier. Hmm... I can see a lot of players immediately going to wrath because of the instant 120xbase pl modifier and not enough players going for the Narcissistic approach or Greed Approach, which can be a problem. This would mean that they'd immediately be the End game kings, in terms of immediate power... What if it could charge up to 300% after 2 posts and couldn't be charged further? Meaning it'd be 150% of their power post 1, then 300% post 2? It can give them a more balanced approach, should they try to instantly nuke someone in the face (which we've been trying to avoid with KP so far.). Endgame kings? Dude the one attack would be able to be dodged by anyone at the same power level as them endgame, some races easier than others. (At 300% a demon on their PL could dodge it with an [SU3]) Not only does the 150% charge break the 33/66/100 ruling but it (as I've stated a few times already) forces them to sit their charging to make it effective thus taking away any and all edge it has. If it could be used numerous times in a thread then I'd say 'yeah that seems fine lets make it charge at a faster rate' but the limiter that it can be only used once demands that it be potent. There is too high a price to needlessly gimp it and make it lag. People fixating on charging is a common gripe so I want to avoid that. Also It'd basically be saying "You can get a 300% for charging for 2 turns while every other race has to charge 3! Isn't that amazing? But you can only use it once!" It's a whole lot less special if you think about it that way Hybrids already have it way better than demons with an easier all around ride and a comfortable spot in the endgame. If we are really gonna buff the hybrid's trait we should just make it so they start with an [MP3] instead of an extra [N1] that's a worthwhile early game boon. Hybrids already get a x10 to their Makyo Star form right off the bat so they are already equal with an early game greed demon. I'd much rather have Demons choose one really impressive special trait vs 3 gimped kinda confusing ones. As disappointed as I am that hybrids get nothing with this, it does mean well. However, I'll visit that myself another time... For full blooded demons, I think that this is good but the difference between one instance 300% skill and having an extra +2 to a trans modifier seems a little crazy compared to getting a SU3 Healy barrier. That works once. As it appears, they seem pretty scaled in terms of power like this: +2 to trans > 300% single attack > single Healy barrier. I think I can guess who will choose what everytime lol The barrier can be charged unlike the attack which effectively makes it a free MP3 Barrier that ALSO has healing capabilities. The transformation boost is certainly useful but limited in when it can be used so not always something someone will choose, the attack is useful and powerful, but unchargeable which means it could theoretically be overpowered, heck it could be overpowered by another demon utilizing the barrier! They all seem pretty balanced overall to me, will people be more likely to choose the attack or transformations? Probably. But thats a symptom of people being generally more focused on directly offense oriented powers most likely. Yes indeed Habana is right on my wavelength here. The barrier was kinda designed for more 'tanky' types who'd get a slower move but one that could potentially keep them alive much longer than the Wrath Demon's move. Greed Demons would be better for those who wanted a demonic character with a general but less potent boost overall (It'd be restricted to one week of the month)
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Zod
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Post by Zod on Oct 13, 2015 8:24:50 GMT
Mkay, this 3 way thing is definately something I can get behind. Not allowing it be accessable to Hybrids should be natural, as it is suppose to be the pinnicle and clutch ability of the demon race, not the demon-hybrid race. I was actually thinking of making one based on the 7 deadly sins, however, 7 choices that all fall into the racial trait category would be extremely difficult to balance.
Wrath: to be honest, though the offensiveness matched with "wrath" sounds cool, Wrath is a mixture of rage and hate. If any choice should get an additional multiplier, it's wrath, not greed.
Narcessism: I actually like this ability, especially if it can be altered in design, such as a perminent barrier that lasts until broken, a fire barrier that also burns those in melee combat, etc. You could also make the healing side affect just one of the several selectable side affects.
Greed: greed is all about possession. IMO this should be a zenni bonus on zenni threads and/or an additional tech slot every 4k pl.
With this design, Wrath would be great for power players that are all about the boom. Narcessism would be more geared towards intellectual players that want something that will always be useful. And, of course, Greed's insane lust for almost auto benefits would also be fulfilled.
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Post by Maeve Rakshasa on Oct 13, 2015 8:41:47 GMT
Mkay, this 3 way thing is definately something I can get behind. Not allowing it be accessable to Hybrids should be natural, as it is suppose to be the pinnicle and clutch ability of the demon race, not the demon-hybrid race. I was actually thinking of making one based on the 7 deadly sins, however, 7 choices that all fall into the racial trait category would be extremely difficult to balance. Wrath: to be honest, though the offensiveness matched with "wrath" sounds cool, Wrath is a mixture of rage and hate. If any choice should get an additional multiplier, it's wrath, not greed. Narcessism: I actually like this ability, especially if it can be altered in design, such as a perminent barrier that lasts until broken, a fire barrier that also burns those in melee combat, etc. You could also make the healing side affect just one of the several selectable side affects. Greed: greed is all about possession. IMO this should be a zenni bonus on zenni threads and/or an additional tech slot every 4k pl. With this design, Wrath would be great for power players that are all about the boom. Narcessism would be more geared towards intellectual players that want something that will always be useful. And, of course, Greed's insane lust for almost auto benefits would also be fulfilled. The reason why Greed is the additional multiplier is because these demons would be focused on absorbing as much power from the Makyo Star as possible because they are desperate to attain as much power as possible (In all my searches on the three poisons Greed is interchanged with Desire frequently) Greed doesn't have to always correlate with money The additional Zeni is utilized by numerous races already and if it were a choice between a super powered offensive/buff or a badass shield it'd never be picked. Wrath as you said, is a mixture of rage and hate so my description of utilizing these emotions to fuel a powerful attack still works. The shield would be locked to the healing one, those types of shields that you described can be applied for already, the healing additive is restricted for specials only currently (as far as I know) I think giving people too much reign to design this one as the will leaves it open to be abused. Besides, the primary goal of a narcissistic person would be preservation and curing imperfections (I.E wounds, scars etc) Now a person doesn't have to be a self centered dick but that's the inspiration for the move.
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Zod
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Post by Zod on Oct 13, 2015 8:59:02 GMT
putting it that way, I can see where a lust for power would come into play.
I still think Wrath fits better with the additional multiplier, though. I also still relate greed more towards a desire to possess as well as instant benefit. Narcessism with the healing affect also makes more sense with how you described it... can't be seen with a scar on your face right? *uses ability like make-up masking*
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 16, 2015 2:34:28 GMT
The issue with the idea that you and Vi-Poi came up with, Nicolas, is that the strategy ends up becoming, "Become a Wrath Demon only. The others don't matter." It becomes an instant meta-gaming situation, which will result in us having to restrain the Wrath Demons and put Demons back on the drawing table to repeat this process all over again. That is to also say, this strain of demon isn't the only problem. Greed Demons will then be striving to go for DE threads under the Makyo star only, and no others. This means players will not enter a Death Enabled thread if they're outside because players are going to be afraid to enter at any other time that isn't during Makyo Star week of the month. Summoning the Makyo Star via special technique will instantly become the situation at hand, and they'll be abusing this power. Narcissistic Demons are the only Demons who seem to be the most balanced of the 3 and favor any battle to prove their worth, but this can actually simply be covered in the design I've got for the Demons and their setup. The setup I'm constructing gives them an overall, thematic and mechanical usage, no matter what cultural background the Demon sets themselves up with. Granted, the Support mechanic is the biggest sinkhole that needs filling, but that's what I want to get figured out. Yes, I'm being headstrong with this set up, but I'm working this for all overall races. Side note, if Hybrids got the nerf I suggested in the most recent thread, they could share in this perk, and even have Bio-Androids being able to share this perk too. (Take a look here if you're interested why I brought this up.)
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Oct 16, 2015 3:50:27 GMT
It sounds kind of like you're reaching for the worst possible scenarios with these. There's not gonna be a perfect solution but I stand firm in thinking that my proposal is balanced, simple, effective and interesting. Currently we only have 1 kind of demon skill (the less effective Wrath skill) the point of these suggestions is to give people some options without going overboard. These moves should be like any other special, simple but effective.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Oct 16, 2015 4:14:17 GMT
We'll probably see that system brought up be the system chosen in the votes, but we'll just have to see in the voting area. The ideas are fleshed out enough as it is.
Anyone else have a thought on the matter?
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Zod
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Post by Zod on Oct 16, 2015 12:07:45 GMT
that all of this is way too complicated for a race buff? I guess like that's not much of a thought though. First, a x3 maneuver is definately NOT what a power player would go after. Why in gods name would you choose that when you can pick an auto heal that can be used at the click of a button? Someone blows off the lower half of your body with a x100000 your PL attack? Click, back to full PL and your ubber maneuver was a complete waste x.x; power players aren't retarded, even a 300% barrier ability doesn't stand a chance against someone who can automatically restore all their stats back to full... yet it's the least abusable, right? x2 additional during the makio star is rather limited and gets in the way of people who like to stack on PL quickly with solo play. They wouldn't want to wait a week when they can be doing something right now while preparing! Having a once per thread auto heal is pretty much the same thing as a namek's regeneration, only it restores everything instead of wasting PL and KP on the restoration. you'd have to give a pretty good mechanical explanation for it to not be abused. I've been thinking about this and well x.O; really it's all too complicated to be a racial buff UNLESS it was a customized race buff. INSTEAD I'd look at the new mechanics you are attempting to install into the board and make their super special something that would compliment it. Just as an example, and ONLY as an example, increasing their KP cap by 1. Demons who love to fight will find anything that lessons the burden of the board mechanics to be a godsend, even while having to sacrifice endgame PL; whether it's charging, varient requirements, signature maneuver learning difficulties, ability and transformation threads, making anything easier so they can focus on their desire for destruction is what you should REALLY be looking for. Not only that, but you'll automatically know how it can be abused, thus limiting it; you did design the system yourself, yes?
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Post by Maeve Rakshasa on Oct 16, 2015 18:12:22 GMT
The healing would work like any other healing move currently, not better not worse, the benefit would be it could also protect you while you activate it. The Offensive and Shield moves would use 3 kp (all) and could be only used once per thread. Compare that to the Homunculus, Kami, or Namekian healing (which can be used multiple times) and suddenly it isn't as op as you make it out to be
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Nov 9, 2015 5:36:57 GMT
Bringing this back to the stage to ask, "Do we wish to get the voting started or does someone have an idea they wish to throw into the table?"
As it stands, here's what the options are:
1) Stay the same.
2) Pieter's idea: Tier enhanced Demonic Skill, which gains 3 unique techniques of Offense, Defense, and Support with only 1 usage per thread. Tiers up additional modifier of power from +1 to +4, starting at Tier 2/Super Saiyan Stage of power for offense and Defense. Support enables great power, but at a cost (Monkey's Paw Support. Requires staff approval on ability). Abilities approved at the start.
3) Nicolas's idea: The three 'Poisons of Power'. Wrath (Instant 300% offense, No Charge), Narcissism (MP3 Healing Defensive Shield), Greed (Makyo Star Empowerment +2 multiplier addition to transformation).
Did I forget anyone?
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Nov 9, 2015 5:40:06 GMT
Just clarify it's +2 multiplier addition to all the demon's transformations during the Makyo star and we're golden baby (Or directly quote my proposal post in your vote thread)
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Nov 9, 2015 6:13:44 GMT
+2 multiplier addition to transformation under Makyo star does indeed equate what you say.
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Post by Maeve Rakshasa on Nov 9, 2015 6:53:07 GMT
I'm sorry worked for like 10 hours today. I'm a bit tired and misread. You right bro.
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