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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 20:46:56 GMT
They would not. They'd be getting an additional technique for their troubles at the start, possibly one that starts off at a higher level for their troubles of starting this way (Debating this thought still, but tossing it out to see what you guys can think of at this conjecture.). *ADD ON* Evaluating the demon hybrid at this conjecture with the Demonic Skill power, as I've labeled it above, would actually hurt the rest of the races far more because, suddenly, the race that's not supposed be having as much strength with the Demonic Skill would actually earn much more with the Demonic skill than the Demon with the Demonic Skill, unless its power reduced by 3/4 per level, to end up with a +1 to the halved base of +2, which would mean that the Demon Hybrid of Ultimate Potential is matching the Demon in terms of power... Hmm... You know what, that may actually work. Thoughts, though? I definitely don't think that hybrids deserve the same level of strength in technique. In its current form for hybrids as a one time bonus normal tech I don't think they deserve to lose out ~4 techs every 100k though.
I kinda like Nicholas's idea. Getting three extra start techs instead of one I think would justify the tech over-time loss if you wanted to apply it to hybrids. But I am pretty sure every bio-andriod ever is going to choose that in a meta scenario. I personally don't think the demon hybrid benefit is particularly in need of a rebalancing- didn't really strike me as metagame amazing or bottom tier either. I think the least complicated thing to do would be to leave it as a bonus perk and not instill the handicap on hybrids at all.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 20:49:05 GMT
I wasn't going for a game changing moment, like that. I was going for a Monkey Paw-like thing, where Jin(pun on Jinn/Djinn) grants the person what they want but in a way that forces the character to learn some sort of lesson. Like don't be greedy, or help the needy, or work hard for what you want, or something of that nature.
But if that's not acceptable, I'll think of something else.
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Chaz
Rising Soul
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Post by Chaz on Sept 23, 2015 19:45:55 GMT
This does make a lot of sense. I like it. It's a really cool idea, and it does balance well. (Take that statement with a grain of salt, please. I am not claiming to know what is balanced and what isn't. So from a semi-blind point of view, it looks balanced to me.) I think you did a really good job, Pieter.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Sept 23, 2015 21:01:33 GMT
This does make a lot of sense. I like it. It's a really cool idea, and it does balance well. (Take that statement with a grain of salt, please. I am not claiming to know what is balanced and what isn't. So from a semi-blind point of view, it looks balanced to me.) I think you did a really good job, Pieter. The scheme of things, though, isn't completely sound as of yet... Mm... The thing I want to do to Demons is give them a light nerf to their technique gain by putting their additional tech slots at every 7000 power level (originally thinking 8000, but that's too punishing), which would have Hybrid demons learn a a slower rate of 6500 power level per tech slot gained and demon/human or human/demon hybrids having a slight nerf to their power level growth, compared to other demons by putting their tech slot gaining at 5500 instead of that flat 5000 (awkward? Yes). If we WERE to give them the 3 techniques at the start, though, it wouldn't be appropriately sound, as that means, unless we're accelerating this to the massive late game, we're seeing them have a technique advantage at the start, Kobal. A Demonic Skill of weaker value would be a more appropriate thing to see... But the consequence of it? That's something I've yet to get figured out. So... Say that we have a player going for Ultimate Potential (look me in the face and tell me that's not what other hybrids'll be doing) and they're going for the Majority demon blood set up with Human's ability to rapidly adapt their knowledge of techniques (Tech Slot at every 4000 power level going up to Tech Slot at every 5000 power level for hybrids without the nerf). The Demonic Skill Power, in either offensively or defensively and since it's going to be at half, would be as follows (mathematically): **Quick note: I'll be comparing the levels to each other, so bare with me. Hybrid will go first, but if I get into a rant, I'll try to fix it up in a following post.** Base form: x2 power level. Tier 1- Latent Potential/Mastered Potential: x4 base power level + x2 base power level= x6 base power level. Tier 2- x11 base power level + (Base plx(2+.5))= x13.5 base power level. Now, in comparison with the Full Demon, the Full Demon only as x8 base power level + (base plx(4+1))= x13. In essence, this is essentially slapping a Demon in the face because a lowly half breed is stronger with their Demonic Skill than the Full Demon. However, lets get to the next stages and see if this changes... AH! Actually, this does change even more so here! As, the reason is the Hybrid gets the chance to Master this form, for the Hybrid template is still stylized after Saiyans! The power boost goes up by an addition x3 base power level, for a total of x16.5 and, if they used bulking on top of this, this gets to the SSJ Oozaru Tier of power, at a staggering x20.5 base power level! So, we're already seeing this Overpower the normal demon... In terms of Tier equivalents. If the Full Demon were in Tier 3, they'd be slightly pushing them... But lets get to that issue next, mm? Tier 3- x25 base power level + (x2 base powerlevel+ x1 base Power level)= x28 base power level. Now, we compare to the Demon, Destruction King. They stand at x18 base power level + (x4 base power level + x2 base power level)= x24 base power level... This is a gigantic difference at this stage of the game. Nevermind the fact the Demon is already struggling to compete with a Tier 2 Demon Hybid, they can't compete with the Demon Hybrid of the same tier here! So, we're noticing a very VERY punishing scheme to those players who're playing Full Demons from Tiers 2 and 3. Lets get to the next one, shall we? Tier 4- This would be the point where a Hybrid Demon starts to pale in power, for if they are going to Ultimate Potential, they can not go with the x40 Power Spike, which levels out to x44 (a x1 base multiplier difference with Ultimate potential, but the Demonic Skill Power is the same). Demons can get a relaxing time here, knowing that their x22 base + (x4 base+x3 base) is being protected and giving them an ability to fight... A Tier 3 Hybrid Demon. However, should a Demo Hybrid go for the x40, then here, we are seeing x40 base + (x2 base + x1.5 base) for a total of x43.5 base power level, which shoots up to x47.5 base power level for the Mastered Forms of this tier, which is technically final tier for them. An Ultimate Potential Demon would have a x48.5 base because it is of the same tier as the x40-x44 transformation. Final Tier- The Final Tier is the only point where we see the Hybrid Demon of Ultimate Potential and Full Powered Demon are matching in Demonic Skill Power. The Demon has a multiplier, currently, of x40. When you do the Demonic power, this become a x48... Which is dialing back to the difference of power we saw back in Tier 2. If we were to compare to the x44 Demonic skill, this would finally put the Demon at a heart race advantage. Now, what does this explanation have to do with this? We're revealing that, if the Demonic Hybrid gets this Demonic Skill, it is insinuating that a Demon Hybrid is always superior to a Full Blood Demon in comparison to Demonic Power, using the skill or not. This is why they can't get a Demonic Skill. The other issue at hand, with Demon Hybrids getting 3 techniques and, lets face it, people are going to go for Demon/Human Hybrid with the technique learning enhancement because it's so easy to abuse, this would mean they could get right to a chargeable technique that throws the Demonic Skill out of the question for the Demon in the first place... Which is why it's so problematic that they can't begin to charge a technique! At the 2nd post, their most precious techniques are OVER POWERED by most of the races because we can simply charge MP3 skills and other specials, whilst the Demon race is having to be a rogue race that is having to fester in the shadows... Which I feel is a hefty problem for them as well! But, we'll get to that later. For now, the focus on Demonic Hybrids... What can we do for them? Simple: Have them not gain the increased power gain from Demonic Skill that Demons get. Sure, they can be mostly demon, but they're impure... They won't ever know how to allow their power become a deep well, like Demon race.
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Sept 23, 2015 22:04:49 GMT
Pieter your view seems a bit off, though I suppose that could be a difference in views on which transformations are at which
tier' for me it looks a lot more like this
Tier 0 Demoic Will [x3] vs Latent/Trained Potential [x4] – Special Attack Demonic Will[x7] vs Special Attack Potential x6 | Pure Demon wins
Makyo Star Tier Irrelevant as pure demons cannot use there boost with it and as such neither should hybrids even if the hybrid transforms via some other method.
Tier 1 Demon King [x8] vs 'Super' [x11] – Special Attack Demon King [x12] vs Special Attack Super [x13] | Hybrid Demon Wins
Tier 2 Hakaio [x18] vs Super 2 [x14] or Buff Super[x18(Offensive)] – Special Attack Hakaio [x22] vs Super 2 [x16] or Buff Super [x20] | Pure Demon wins in raw power even against the 'buff' form.
Tier 3 Pure [x22] vs Super 3[x25] – Special Pure [x26] vs Special Super 3 [x27] | Hybrid Wins out on this one
Tier 4 Makaioshin [x39] vs Super 4[x40] – Special Makaioshin [x43] vs Special Super 4 [x42] | Pure Demon wins out here
Tier 5 And here is where things break off and the REAL problem presents itself, Makaioshin gain nothing after this point remaining at x39, Hybrids however gain another whole tier either bringing them up to x44(x46 with Special) or x45(x47 with special) which means they obviously win the round as its not really even a contest.
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Overall things look great up until tier 5 in a Hybrid/Pure match up, both trade off in who gets the best out of the power which is actually pretty cool, demons start off better, then the hybrid takes it, then the pure can beat the hybrid even when they are going all out on offense(buff) but then the Hybrid sntaches an advantage, only for the purebreed to take it back. The ideal situation would perhaps be for Demons to get another transformation, logistically keeping with the theme it could be a x41 which would put them just below the 'fast' track for a hybrid, and x2 below a Potential Hybrid, a x42 would provide them with an even playing field for Fast Hybrids but a x1 'loss' to Potential hybrids.
Overall I think the 'give Demons a x42' would be a really good route, the x4 tech they receive is really great but probably not nearly enough to give them such a subpar final form to such an extent that its practically like they are missing an entire tier of transformations.
This also assumes that Hybrid Demons would receive the ability to utilize a x2 version of the Demonic Technique, but as it currently stands they cannot, I in fact thing that with this set up that would actually be a really great idea for them, make people more interested in using the Demon Hybrid tree and being Demon-Focused. (on a side note this makes me think that perhaps the 'dominant trait' should actually be a better racial than the other, a non-dominant Demon Hybrid shouldent get the x2 Special power but rather receive the current 'bonus tech' racial. I think I might flesh this idea out into a full concept and post it up.
Edit: Demonic Hybrids surpassing the purebreeds at certain tiers actually makes a lot of sense in the context of DBZ, hybrids were shown to be great at being the best of both worlds, so it makes sense that they would grow stronger than a Pure Demon at certain stages even if using a lesser version of the demonic power within them.
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Sept 23, 2015 22:20:40 GMT
Demons end at x40 now btw
Also, the problem is that demon hybrids end up at a better final spot and get other buffs (Their Makyo Star is better for example they have the potential to gain ZENKAI or other racial bonuses etc) So giving them the one thing that makes Pure Breeds special would make the pure breeds obsolete. They have a lot going for them (the vast amount of hybrid demons over full blooded demons is testament for that) so I firmly believe that they shouldn't end up getting further buffed
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Sept 23, 2015 22:28:18 GMT
The idea here is wrong. You're pitting Demon Tier 3 against an Enhanced Tier 2 Hybrid Demon. Remember, it's based upon a slightly weaker version of Saiyans (save for the Ultimate Potential portion). So, compare them side to side with their respective tiers. Keep in mind, the only period where Hybrids stall is between Tier 3 and the 4th (and final) tier, which is not so substantially large, depending on the path they take. For the Majority of the game, the Pure Demon gets beaten down by the Demonic Hybrid. And even in the late game, they get beaten for trying to raise a fist against them.
The situation is that Demonic Hybrids actually beat out the Demon in every situation, which is why I can't reason for them getting the Demonic Skill, nor do I find it sensible to give them 3 techniques. Demonic Hybrids would be able to get the additional technique slot at the start, they'd suffer the consequence of missing out on getting techniques 500 power level earlier. If they go the human's trait, they eliminate this issue, getting the chance to develop at a slightly earlier speed than the Pure races.
Now, the idea I'm getting across is that the Tier of transformations are adding an additional power boost, after Tier 1, to the Demonic Skill power boost. Any Makyo-Star related transformations can't use Demonic Skill. That seems to be getting glazed over... And whilst talking in skype to Nicolas in Skype in the Staff chat, I've conceived of a way to making Demonic skill useful in the late game. So, the skill becomes chargeable, but at the rate of their transformation tier.
So, here's a proposed equation I came up with to explain this idea, using a Demon of Final Tier at 500,000 power level charging the technique for 2 posts:
(500,000x(40x2))+(500,000x(4*+*4)) (500,000x80)+(500,000x8) 40,000,000+4,000,000= 44,000,000 power level offensive attack.
What's this doing here, you may be wondering? This deals with the idea that, if a Demon resorts to using Demonic Skill offense to humiliate and kill their hated foe(s) as it is right now, at the same power level, against someone who's posts just before they fire this Demonic Skill off, the Demon's precious Demonic Skill gets overcome... By anyone. So, this is the proposal for the Demonic Skill's Offense portion. The Defensive Demonic Skill and Demonic Support skills would not get a charge rate, to satisfy mechanics in place on site. The above example shows a comparison of a Demon's technique resulting in a competition of power with Namekians, Bio-Androids, Overdrive Androids, and Majins who don't go the absorption path (Magic Skill Majin).
Now, questions?
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Sept 23, 2015 22:58:27 GMT
No PL Req: x3 + x8 vs x4 or x10
Both races possess starting transformations, hybrids have a buffed 'moon' state but as stated even if they lack another form to use there special tech in they would not gain tis benefits in the makyo star form(though that form itself is superior to the makyo star of a demon so thats a thing which kinda sucks but oooh well, pure demons get a more long term ability to utilize there increased power)
70k / 100k Tier 1 – x8 vs x11
140k / 175k Tier 2 – 18 vs 14x/18x
240k / 250k(or 300k) Tier 3 – 22x vs 25x
385k / 400k Tier 4 – 40x vs 40x
None / 450k Tier 5 – 40x vs 44x or 45x
Not sure why comparing the 'enhanced tier 2 hybrid' is incoorect, it lines up PL wise perfectly with the Demon's x18 slot, demons getting a x40 as there final is pretty nice, and changes things up for the Tier 4 a bit more in there favor(they now have a more distinct lead at that level) I still think a 'tier 5' x42 transformation would be good for demons providing them with an even footing with the a fast track Demon Hybrid and of course a 'loss' to the Unlimited potenital side.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Sept 23, 2015 23:10:19 GMT
The x14/x18 offense/x12 defense set up replaces the x11, which is why I put it to the Tier 2 level. That's the thing I'm clarifiying. Then, when the actual tier comes up, Tier 3 Demons pale in comparison.
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Queen Habana
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Post by Queen Habana on Sept 23, 2015 23:17:02 GMT
But its clearly far more in the 'tier 3' range (at least in this context) when you compare PL's, the fact that it 'replaces' the x11 is mostly irrelevent when you are considering a fight where the two warriors will be using there maximum power anyway, just because a demon -could- use his/her x8 over the x18 doesnt mean they WOULD for any logical reason, if the demon is using there special technique they are most likely looking to put the opponent DOWN and in that regard why would they NOT use there full power to do so.
Edit: By that logic Androids only have a 'tier 1' transformation as each form they take 'replaces' the last
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Sept 23, 2015 23:42:39 GMT
Yes... And no. They actually do undergo drastic changes to their persons. But, their skill Overdrive does operate as though it's the only transformation they got, despite the reality being that they're tossing away what was once apart of them to undergo a massive power spike permanently.
Getting back to this, though, this is the problem I'm trying to get focused on and this is a probable, evolutionary system that'll be making Demons a very nice race to pick. Saiyans got their Zenkai power boosts that they can use extravagantly with Senzu Beans and Healing techniques (think of that: Healing Wielding Saiyans... Scary thought), the Androids have their entire shop to give themselves a lot of nifty upgrades and can use an overdrive with their current state of power, the Namekians have 3 uniquely dedicated ideas of life that actually define their kits (future update hint), and Majins have the choice of either go big or die strategies with absorption formats or they can be very comfortable allies with the ability to provide substantial effects (possibly even moreso to their own race... Dropping another hint at what I've got in mind. They'll be out a week after this has all been figured), and Hybrids get some of the best of two worlds, with Bio-Androids getting the best of 3 worlds AND a nifty thing I've been thinking for their Super Perfect forms...
Getting back to Demons, this design's gonna make players have to choose the sort of style they're gonna fight with. Do they be a last ditch protection against a cataclysmic blast to show that their kin aren't all bad? Do they be the devilish bargainer, seeking to gain something in the end? Or, perhaps, they intend to show their hand and reveal the monsters they keep hidden away?
As a side note thing, I've conceived of an name for the tiered power growths of the Demonic Skill enhancement. I'll call it, "The Demon's Cheat."
Idea: They're tricking the enemy into thinking that there's not so much power in the Demon's attack... Then BOOM! The attack suddenly became a life-threatening attack that even Humans, Alien A, and Absorption Majins must fear! With the charge rate in the Demonic Rage, the Percentile comparison drops by 50% its current per post.
Charge 1: 120%
Charge 2: 120%+110%
Charge 3: 120%+110%+105%
etc. and so forth. Why are there percents there now? Reason: x8 is 20% of x40, 10% of x80, and 5% of x120. In essence, this attack increase is a Deceiver's design. The Demon's gonna choose his/her moments, and they're gonna choose them fast if they're the focus. Too much limelight and their performance gets drowned out by another entering the stage... They're not late actors or early actors... They are those who arrive precisely when they mean to. That's the whole idea for the Demonic Offense, Defense, and Support skills.
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Sept 23, 2015 23:48:29 GMT
Aight so, I had a thought. This would make the Demonic special simple and effective throughout. I realized now that I've been using the special wrong (Thankfully I haven't utilized it in combat yet)
My thought, rather than dump an equation on the players laps and confuse folks with the scaling power we just make it simple.
On the demon page it says this
Which sounds awesome. It makes it sound like the attack is a 1 time use 400% attack.
Which is followed by:
That's a whole lot less awesome. This means Demons get a 1 time use unchargable 166% attack (If my math is right) Now, if we go by Pieter's suggestion This would increase but in it's increased intervals it'd not only break the 33/66/100 rule we have for offensive techs but it'd require us to wrestle with a formula in order to determine the damage if we wanted to charge it.
That's confusing and annoying frankly.
So my suggestion is this: forget the scaling, forget the weird calculations, and make it simple. The demon offensive ability works like a one time use unchargable 300% MP3 (AKA a special) This would give Demon's a simple but scary edge in their back pocket that they can use once per thread. The reason I lowered it to 300% is so that a demon on equal footing could still be able to dodge it using an [SU3] I think having this free special would justify their low end point late game and make them stand out a bit.
Now, for Hybrid demons, they could get the current 1 time use nonchargeable 166% as their special. This would make having the demon side notable but not have them completely outclass demons.
The numbers could be played with but I'm pretty happy with what I've come up with
Another thought I had was the option to make it so with these more potent numbers the demons could choose either the offensive defensive or support paths when making their character. If they had to choose one this would make each demon unique and give them different 'playstyles' and if they only got one we'd be able to make the specials more potent and effective since they only get the one
That's my thoughts
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Sept 24, 2015 0:03:41 GMT
Hang on though, Nicolas Mclendon. Wouldn't this effectively write up as the type of, "I'm gonna kill you on the spot because you just tried to put a finger into my zone because you just wasted KP trying to combat me with an MP3 skill or a Special Skill like Kikoho," moment? I feel as though it hurt player rp moments, rather than enable some sort of dealing with the whole concept behind what a Demon is.
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Nicolas Mclendon
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Post by Nicolas Mclendon on Sept 24, 2015 0:05:53 GMT
I'm gonna be honest I have no idea what you just said
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Sept 24, 2015 0:08:35 GMT
Explaining an Out of Character mentality that I view as a bit toxic. The idea that they can instantly jib someone into the afterlife with a technique that shoots out instantly at x3 or x4 their current power level is the problem I'm seeing immediately here. The proposition that this system I've conceived, and yes it's complex, but not overly complex as it seems to be, isn't overwhelming and it keeps life to the idea behind what the Demonic Skill is designed for.
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