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Post by Benetto Giri (Fluentinnerd) on Jul 16, 2015 3:08:48 GMT
One way of perhaps helping the system is having the PL leftover be compared to the opponent's base PL as opposed to their current modified PL to replicate the lowered defenses of being in such a state. If we had a dice system, that would also be an alternative, but as it stands, running against the base seems plausible. From what I can tell, the major thread Fire on Ice, in regards to Bing's attack versus Vi-Poi's shield seemed to run damage based on Vi-Poi's base PL, as otherwise the leftover damage from Boa Blaster wouldn't have harmed him. Against Vi's base, however, it was a heavy blow. Perhaps this could make the system somewhat more usable?
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Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
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Post by Mayze on Jul 16, 2015 3:13:09 GMT
A dice system is a definite no-no.
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Post by President Bao on Jul 16, 2015 3:40:39 GMT
If we wish to create a dedicated beam stuggle system I say treat it like charging.
when two beams clash they continue to pool energy so long as you keep pouring more charges into them. After a number of turns, or if your opponents beam exceeds yours by a certain amount, or if you give in, the weaker of the two will falter.
Have more to add but have run out of time, so that 'summary' will have to do for now^
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 5:36:22 GMT
Dice? Yea--No, ain't nobody got time for that.
Charge? OH Now I see what ya saying, that doesn't sound too bad really.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 12:50:38 GMT
Now it's one thing to have two beams meet and instantly have a winner based on the PL. It's something else when you have that same determination come after x number of posts. That's fair to me.
Person A fires a beam attack.
Person B retaliates with another, stronger beam attack.
Gloat, gloat, gloat.
Banter, banter, banter.
Person A powers up.
Person B loses.
Alternatively, it might be allowed to have a basic tier one attack to be upgraded into a tier two attack to put mpre power into it without a transformation.
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Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
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Tag: @gagelange10
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Post by Mayze on Jul 16, 2015 18:50:04 GMT
I don't want a new beam struggle system. It's fine how it is right now, no need to change it into something much more complex.
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Post by Benetto Giri (Fluentinnerd) on Jul 17, 2015 2:35:05 GMT
I feel that the system needs to be revised just by how little difference the result of a beam struggle makes to a fight right now. Whether this involves changing how the beam hits you or how it collides with the opponent's attack, it needs some form of revision, as right now it functions as a giant anti-climax. Zuni's comment has helped to warn of going too far in fixing it, and to avoid turning something that is currently underwhelming into something that is overpowered. The current system just doesn't function in combat. It's like if the Cell saga ended with what remained of the Father-Son Kamehamaha plinking Cell in the face, then Gohan falls down and just gives up. It makes some degree of logical sense, but it isn't terribly satisfying, and allows a very weak move to remove so much PL off of a strong move so as to make it completely ineffective. With two fighters of equal power right now, if one used an MP3, and the other used an N1, the N1 would reduce the PL of the MP3 enough to make it do way less damage. If this is combined with the burgeoning KP system, the fighter who used the N1 is also now in an amazing advantage, as he can now start up a UP2 without any possible intervention from the opponent. Long story short, the current system is simple, but it really just doesn't work unless the two fighters already have a tremendous difference in power to begin with, at which point the fight is somewhat of a moot point.
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Post by Kaula on Jul 17, 2015 8:32:04 GMT
Pic Relevant It's only boring in the current system if you decide make it boring - just saiyan - because you can RP out a whole struggle; considering if the others in the thread are cool with it. We don't need some stupidly complex beam system. If we're ever going to do some beam clash system or whatever; we'd likely go with Bao's idea as it's simple and straight to the point. Plus he has a good idea on what the combat is like here; so the guy knows what he's talking about. We are definitely not doing dice, dice are stupid and would require moderating so people don't cheat. Plus it's stupid. Also they wouldn't really work with the new combat system that we will be implementing; the KP system.
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Post by Benetto Giri (Fluentinnerd) on Jul 17, 2015 18:18:18 GMT
I'd like to set a few things straight, as I keep being accused of things I didn't say. I gave up on a more complicated system, Zuni provided the excellent point that in my original plan, a 1 PL difference would mean the world, which would be unfair. My current stance is no more complicated than the current, I'm just advocating to compare the difference to the base PL as opposed to the transformed PL to replicate how their defenses would be lowered in trying to fight the attack off. I not once advocated using dice for here, I simply stated that if we did, it would be an option. I am more than aware that this is a strictly no-dice system, so please stop telling me how bad of an idea it is when I never suggested using it in the first place. I normally wouldn't comment again so soon, but I really don't like how people are putting words in my mouth here.
TLDR; I don't want complication, I never wanted dice, I like Bao's idea, and I think comparing the difference to the opponent's base PL would also be a valid way to make the system work better. Please read what I'm actually saying before shooting me down here.
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Post by President Bao on Jul 19, 2015 7:13:23 GMT
I would point out the issue with beam struggles (and why we don't have a current system for them) is because it turns all offensive techniques automatically into draw-out defensive ones. That presents a dominat strtegy we wouldn't want - You could block any attack directed at you by simply launching one of your own, meaning you have no reason to pick a defensive technique like a barrier or other intended 'counter-techniques' cause you already have the most effective counter built right in to your offensive move.
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Post by Zuni on Jul 19, 2015 7:21:55 GMT
We do have a beam struggle system though, Bao. The system is that your move takes the PL off the opposing move and then any extra carries on into damage. It creates the problem you described exactly, but will be mitigated somewhat by the KP system when that is introduced.
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Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
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Post by Mayze on Jul 19, 2015 7:30:46 GMT
As I've stated earlier, the system we have is fine now. There is no real need to change it. It's very easy to understand, and that's what makes it nice. Like a few have said earlier, you can RP your struggle out between posts.
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Post by President Bao on Jul 20, 2015 3:54:31 GMT
Zuni: Don't worry, got my finger on the pulse so I know what's up I'm aware people have applied a system for beams colliding, though i personally wouldn't define that as a beam struggle so much as a 'bug' The current system you guys mentioned here is the result of someone[perhaps myself at some point? I truly don't recall the source] extrapolating from the barrier system(where a stronger attack hitting a barrier will be negated, or have it's damage reduced by the pl of the barrier) and applying it for all attacks. That is not actually a designed system though, but rather an edge-case interaction(a 'quirk' if you will). It does achieve the effect of marginalising beam struggles with instant resolution though, so I considered it a low priority and something just to keep on the down low and only worry about if it became too prevalent. (potentially this discussion may result in such prevalence as people become aware of this technicality existing) When to people are doing an attack some of the expected ways to currently play it(without using the barrier mechanics) would be: > 'flavouring' it as a beam struggle but then having it explode in the middle/near you and thus damage you the same as if their attack had simply succeeded(mechanically speaking), > or for you to flavour a dodge as having blasted the beam as it came to you to deflect it off course, > or having both launched attacks and had them not clash but instead both go past each other, > or have the attacks collide and beak into pieces which then rain down on both parties(mechanically functioning, pl wise, the same as your attack flying at them and their attack flying at you). > (and as noted certain support or variant techs also have specific interactions, such as the aforementioned barrier techniques) ^ there's a lot of flexibility there with how mechanics and flavouring interact (since mechanically it entirely extracts to the very simple 'you get hit' or 'you don't get hit', there's really nothing more to it). ---- I guess the question is folks, what priority are we assigning this task? Any dedicated beam struggle system would take more planning and such before it can go through, however; there is a very immediate fix we can make: For now do you want to rule that the barrier mechanics apply to just barriers, or do you guys want to keep this technicality alive and have attacks negate attacks?
Up to you guys which you want to do
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Post by Zexama on Jul 20, 2015 4:20:20 GMT
I say Ki barrier negate other attacks only. Otherwise it is just, as you said, uselss to pick a defensive technique.
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Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
Zeni: 849
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Tag: @gagelange10
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Posts: 1,232
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Post by Mayze on Jul 20, 2015 6:08:54 GMT
Ki barrier currently is the only attack that negates other attacks. If you were to fire a beam, you'd either take damage, or receive it.
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