|
Post by Benetto Giri (Fluentinnerd) on Jul 12, 2015 5:52:22 GMT
A good while ago, I ran into a fight where I had a large climatic beam struggle of sorts with a foe at the very end of a tournament. However, a few issues very quickly showed themselves. Namely, we don't have many coherent rules for how physical techniques interact when colliding with each other or beam moves, and more importantly, the current system we have for moves colliding only serves to make both moves entirely pointless. Currently, when two moves collide, the stronger of the two is subtracted by the weaker and the resulting PL is dealt to the loser. However, unless the attacker is already more powerful than the defender by a large enough margin that the fight was a given in the first place, the resulting PL is so weak that a regular punch would do far more damage.
In the thread in question, I dealt with my opponent and agreed on both moves activating at the same time to avoid an anti-climactic finish, but the issue still remains. My suggestion is to perhaps run beam struggles somewhat more like a fusion of the way the show deals with it and the games. Rather than subtracting one from the other, the result of a large beam struggle should be bigger than either of the initial moves, as a grand climactic hit to somebody who's defense has just been entirely pushed through.
I suggest perhaps having the result be the stronger move's PL plus 1/2 the weaker move's PL, and the result of the beam struggle is decided in much of a similar way to regular battles. If the PL of one of the moves is under 65% of the PL of the others', the move ends quickly and catastrophically for the weaker fighter. If one is over 65% but under 80%, the beam struggle is visibly in the favor of the stronger, but a turn is spent holding them back where some form of outside interference or emergency transformation may turn the tide. If the two moves are within 80% of each other, the two are deadlocked, with the stronger eventually winning, but ample time is provided for some sort of break of concentration. When in the beam struggle, fighters are using every inch of their concentration, so even something small (such as Vegeta's ki blast during the Cell fight) can break the concentration of another and turn the tide. In addition, in such a deadlocked ki struggle, it would be encouraged for fighters to communicate on who will win the struggle, and how. I just feel that at the moment, beam struggles usually end in a great big anti-climax, and I would love to see it gain the weight such a massive event deserves.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 10:50:59 GMT
I'm not sure how the system works, from what I saw around from others talking and what I understand from the site, I'm guessing it's the stronger PL wins the struggle. It's always been shown that in the anime as well hence the Vegeta vs Goku Beam Struggle, Goku had to use Kaioken x4 to overpower Vegeta's attack. It is % to one's power, what if you suddenly raise your power, won't that increase the overall power of the beam itself? Or does the site work another way around that as well?
This is just a opinion, questioning and output from what I heard and understand from the site's rules so.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 18:58:32 GMT
I believe when I fought mayze I think it went like of one attack versus another in a struggle each of the attack pl's sorta subtract at eachother. The winning is the one that hits I believe and does its damage. {I thinks} I only recall the battle with Mayze An Articho. But I think it went or would go like. 4000 blast going at A. B struggles against it with his own 3000 blast or beam or whatever. B is on the end of the lost struggle and hit with 1000 since thats whats left
|
|
Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
Zeni: 849
Shoki: 2,965
Tag: @gagelange10
OOC Name: Gage
Posts: 1,232
|
Post by Mayze on Jul 12, 2015 21:57:46 GMT
What Jarvis said.
I was reading through an old thread done back in early March. While I was reading it, the two combatants, Wyntre and Ora, both used ki attacks.
When Ora's attack hit Wyntre's, her attack power was subtracted by Ora's. Now, neither of these two are, or were staff, so this may or may not be incorrect. It is never stated clearly in the rules.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 22:00:45 GMT
I would think this would be a easy way to handle it though as its simple and works rather well.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 23:08:40 GMT
Yeah, seems a little better really, at least they're not taking the full on force of the attack afterwards.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 23:38:23 GMT
Thats why I like it. Its quick, Easy to remember, An the after effect is like the remaining power. Its simple and effective ya know. x3
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 3:16:17 GMT
That's not a struggle though. That's just an immediate conclusion based on presumptive stats. Goku and Vegeta's beam struggle, for example, was initially a stalemate / slightly in Vegeta's favor. Goku was at a x3 Kaio-ken and it wasn't until he went up to x4 that he won out.
A beam struggle should include the option of putting more power into the attack to try and win out. Otherwise it's not really a struggle.
|
|
Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
Zeni: 849
Shoki: 2,965
Tag: @gagelange10
OOC Name: Gage
Posts: 1,232
|
Post by Mayze on Jul 13, 2015 3:18:17 GMT
Yes, but that makes it more complex. You can still draw out the struggle if you so choose, but the winner is chosen by who fired the more powerful shot.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 3:26:52 GMT
That defeats the purpose of roleplaying, and is antithetical to the setting itself.
If you're just going to automatically declare the winner of the struggle that way, then why even bother threading? If there's supposed to be room to be clever, then these two ideas clash.
If we're just going to automatically declare one attack the winner over another purely because of one has the higher power level then why even bother saying that someone who is at 65% / 80% power has a chance of winning? If that's the case, it tears out an entire dimension of fighting.
|
|
Mayze
Moderator
PL: 250,469
Super Saiyan(x12) MSSJ(x15)
Zeni: 849
Shoki: 2,965
Tag: @gagelange10
OOC Name: Gage
Posts: 1,232
|
Post by Mayze on Jul 13, 2015 3:31:53 GMT
It's like that, Bharhash, because, we have no mechanics for putting energy into an attack.
But on a side note, you can easily roleplay the struggle out.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 3:52:43 GMT
Its simple and no it doesn't really just go with that 65 and 80 percent bit. Given your attack has its charged pl n1 up3 or mp3 so its pausible a weaker person could have charged a stronger attack in their struggle and released a attack thats stronger then the other one we're are talking about the attacks pl not the hosts. And you can still rp out the struggle in your post. But it'd be ridiculous to make it complicated to the degree of the one attack each dragging on for posts. It simple this way and you can still rp it out however you please. Each struggle isn't the big decider it's just part of the battle. no need to make it far too complicated
|
|
|
Post by Benetto Giri (Fluentinnerd) on Jul 15, 2015 11:32:00 GMT
I'm afraid that nobody has yet to address my primary concern, however. My biggest issue doesn't lie with the length of a beam struggle, is has to do with how under the subtraction system, attacks are often made insignificantly small due to the little amount of PL leftover in the attack unless one attack already well overpowers the other to begin with. Unless perhaps I'm mistaken and the PL overflow is compared to the base PL as opposed to the transformed, as that would at least make some degree of sense. My primary argument is more to allow beam struggles that are close in power to resolve without just simply petering out without much of a finale on either end of the attack. My suggestion was just one plausible way this could go about, and while you have shown the primary issue with it, that being excess complexity, that still leaves the problem at hand.
|
|
|
Post by Zuni on Jul 15, 2015 11:46:34 GMT
Your concern makes sense, but it can't be addressed.
If you can provide an alternative which means a difference of 1pl doesn't mean you will always win every fight, I'd love to hear it! But as it stands, that would be the outcome and that is unacceptable. The current system isn't perfect, but it is the best of the (currently) available options.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 20:00:47 GMT
BP = Battle power (Power level)
Should probably create one that transformation can assist since it's been shown countless times that during a struggle, if you transform (Power up) you automatically put more BP into it.How about whenever amount X has left, if they transform/Power up, it will be times by the % of the beam itself no?Example of what I'm talking about, hopefully it creates ideas.Like (Making up names here), (Max BP for the Kolo 75757.7575) Kolo Beam has 50'000 BP (66%) and Olo Beam has 60'000 (66%) BPDuring the struggle, The Kolo user was down to 25'000 (Half) and the Olo beam was down to 35'000, if the Kolo user transforms into an...SSJ (Pure) which is like x12-- Which is 909'093 Max BP, since the beam is half 66%, it should be 33% no? Meaning it should be 33% of 909'093 BP which should be 300'000 in total.
So it'll now be 300'000 against 35'000 BP
(Decimals were here as well, just too lazy) Feel free to place ya comments, ideas and etc, it looks hard but really isn't, if you can check the % of a attack into your BP, something like this should be rather easy since all your really doing is checking the amount of BP back into percentage and how much it will be after the boost.
|
|