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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 18, 2015 2:43:29 GMT
I'm proposing a change to the catch up system we have currently. At this moment, we're having players try to catch up to 70% of the current top player(s) at this given moment and, in the process of this, those of us who've been less active have become completely trapped in the dust. The method is alright, but the problem we're seeing here is that those who've had to sacrifice their rping time for real life matters have now begun to really feel afflicted by this.
Mind you, I'm not proposing a removal of this catch up. I'm proposing that we lower the value from 70% of the top player(s), to an easier 30%. The reason this 'Catch up' goal was implemented was to help new characters and new players reach a point where they didn't feel trumped by the top player, but have to hit a point where they need to not be supplemented by this. There's no feeling of triumph of reaching that magical 70%, in my eyes. It's now more like, "Oh... I just reached 70% of the top guy... Huh."
One of the things that's bothered me is that there's this need to catch up to someone your character hasn't met, whether you've sensed them or not. This is one of those unneeded to be spoken things, but I'm saying it now: This buff is too strong and it needs a nerf.
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Post by Toma on Mar 18, 2015 2:46:26 GMT
I agree. It needs to be nerfed down to 30% of the current strongest character, and the actual gains itself also needs to be nerfed down to like... a 10% gain boost.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 2:50:09 GMT
I am all for giving some sort of catch up. I am the most vocal of people in the box about this as I am always watching for 'gaming' the systems in place. I may vocalize this as outward hostility as people literally blow past me in power level as I focus on character instead of the power level of myself or my characters. There does need to be a point where those weights are needed as at the moment and in the short future will be fully useless as the LMB will be for well over 120k where most the weights start losing all theri effects so they would need to pretty much be removed from the site.
With moving it to 30% the weights will still have a place for a long long time on the site. I am not talking about removing any of the gains that people gained using the original LMB and weights and whatnot. Though I want to also propose grav and weights do not stack with the LMB at all.
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Post by President Bao on Mar 18, 2015 3:08:19 GMT
edit: Misunderstood, I thought this suggestion was to increase the little man gains further XD... still, will leave original message below for reference ------
This may sound a little harsh but: I don't see how rewarding inactive (or ... erhm, 'lazy') accounts with unfairly high grades is a good idea :/
The little man bonuses is intended to help people catch up who are actually willing to work for it and be an engaged and active part of the site, not to hand out free rides.
Our grading system is designed so that you will end up where you deserve to be - it doesn't matter the *reason* you are inactive, the simple fact is if you are then your power level will be lower than those who are more active. The strongest and most influential members on the site should also be the most active, otherwise we'd end up with super important/powerful characters who are never around to actually play with. XD
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 3:14:39 GMT
Ok so what I am gathering Bao is this.
Post in every thread you possible can. Post as often as possible despite what may happen to your posts. Hit up all the DE threads you can take part in. Literally do everything you can to not roleplay but metagame and grind out PL? Am I far off topic on this?
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Post by President Bao on Mar 18, 2015 3:45:58 GMT
Ha, sounding a little bitter there Nin. XD
Someone who posts regularly and gets involved in saga plots and other inter-member interactions will naturally progress faster than someone who does one or two solo threads a week and that's it. It's the nature of progression.
There are rules and limits in place but the simple answer is, like any game, the more you play the faster you will progress. As a mod you should recall how the system works, so you know exactly which factors cause your proposed exploit to fall apart. Quality *and* quality decide your grade, not just quantity.
As for your comment before: Weights are an early game grade enhancer (thus their cheap cost and why their benefits fall off after a certain point), indeed making them another existing tool for weaker members to catch up to stronger members.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 3:53:20 GMT
Bao there has not been a single saga since the Tournament. The one we wouldve had had been ended with Emer's departure from the site. So there is no real SAGA's on the site since the tournament. As for soudning bitter yes I am a little bitter as I have to be selective with my roleplays as I receive a ton of pm's about people wanting to only join me and thread with me for a specific reason. They want to learn the Kamehameha. So if I had taken up the people in the pm I have had then most the entire site would know the maneuver now and it would no longer be the sole domain of the Turtle School. And I am still saying that quality is still subjective for the people grading. That is all I am saying.
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Post by Pieter Wolfbane on Mar 18, 2015 3:53:32 GMT
I am seeing your side of things here. I'm a guy who wants to write good posts and have a way of keeping things good to read, so it's something to look forward to! Not write a rapid pace and give people something bad to look at.
I understand that, if we want to get our characters stronger, we have to participate more often in threads, solo or not. However, your statement that we don't work hard in our own ways insults the work that we put in trying to develop our own easy quantitative quality posts and threads.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 18, 2015 14:19:51 GMT
Removing or reducing the 'catch-up' gain does not remove the problem some players (myself included) are experiencing.
What it does do is enable the few posts I have the time to put out to give me a better chance of catching up to Athren, or Rei, or Vipoi by increasing the gain. Yes, everyone is getting the gain, but soon the more active players will not.
Instead of 90ishk, Vipoi would be at 60ishk. Instead of 60ishk, I would be at 40ishk. And so on.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on Mar 18, 2015 15:45:50 GMT
but the problem we're seeing here is that those who've had to sacrifice their rping time for real life matters have now begun to really feel afflicted by this. I think that kind of is the heart of the issue. If someone doesn't have enough time to RP as they used to, they won't be at the top as much as they used to be. Also, just because someone posts a lot, does not mean it isn't quality work, or well thought-out. I average about 2 posts a day, and on my lunches I'll make outlines for stories, I've got a Character Sheet for plot-point and development, and I'm really careful about asking "would Vi do this?" when I put him somewhere. All this takes me prolly 2-3 hours a day (not countin mod work), so it's not Herculean. So I don't think it's one or the other, quality or volume. I'm against removing/downgrading LMB for a few reasons. Even with LMB removed entirely, I'd be around 85-90k. You can do the math of my gains and put it in reverse -- weights for instance actually had a 150% more impact than LMB did on my overall gains. The last 30k I made was without LMB, and I did it in not-so-long, in threads I enjoyed and RPed meaningfully in. So LMB didn't allow me to rise to the top tier. What it did allow me to do, is meaningfully compete with those in the mid-tiers faster, which I think is kind of what it was designed for.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 16:15:09 GMT
I am sorry there Vi-Poi that you feel that this is a personal attack against you and your roleplay and how you managed to jump passed literally 99% of the site with your good roleplay and activity. The issue is that the LMB has literally made it that if I made a brand new character today. Did nothing but post 2-3 times a day with 500-1k words per post in say three threads I do not understand how and why that should qualify to gain more than the other character I have that I have taken time, effort, and have developed as a character.
My biggest issue of the entire system is that the items compound and enhance one another. The other issue I have is that it is now not possible to not purchase weights anymore. Literally you need to purchase heavy weights as the very first thing you do on site before you even do anything else. EVERY new member has done that or is having to do that instead of dropping into decent character developing roleplay.
Yes call me bitter, yes call me hateful of the system that is in place but I find it rather insulting that with the same effort someone gains greater power level.
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Zucceta
Administrator
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 18, 2015 16:22:00 GMT
Well, I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no reason why you can't aim to do both of those things. To earn zenni, you need to roleplay, for one; so you can do 'decent character-developing roleplays' and ask for a zenni reward and then buy any items you require.
It's not as if weights are useful forever; in fact, they bottom off fairly early in the meta-game. They're also fairly cheap to buy early into the character development.
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Pipa
Archived
PL: 19,119; Great Namek(Demonic Will) (x3); Makyo Star(x8); Items: One-Use Space Pod, Onyx Scimitar, 1 5,000PL Guard, Upgraded Ship (6 occupant ship), x80 Gravity Chamber, Heavy Weights; Zeni: 0
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Post by Pipa on Mar 18, 2015 18:29:57 GMT
We could do away with the bonus altogether and just give out light weights for free to new players. As it is now light weights are an obvious waste of money, but it could produce the bonus effect in what I feel would be a more balanced way than the current. On top of other bonuses heavy + LMB is giving you 125% more pl (literally more than your actual words are worth).
(I'd also argue that the pl boosters as a whole are wayyyyy too big, +75% makes heavy weights more or less mandatory... something like +15% would be the max i'd go really and it would actually be worth making a choice since it would degrade later).
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Koramund
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Post by Koramund on Mar 18, 2015 19:02:54 GMT
Anyone elese realize that we are not even HALF WAY TO OUR MAX TRANS? Sorry to cap, but at most only two of us are at Tier 2! Athren and Vi! Everyone else is only decently close, or tier 1! Seriously! Do we want to make it so we have to take a year to get Tier 2? I have been here 5 months, and I got all my gains, but I am still only half-way (a little over) to Tier 2, when I have a total of 6 tiers of transformation. We are right now in the earliest part of the site's PL game. I think we should flat out either re-vamp the grading system to make it better, so people stop complaining about it, or we simply make it easy to get your PL. If your active and have good gear, happy! But we put limits on almost everything here to bottleneck growth. Weights only work for a little while, gravity chambers are only twice a week, etc. We limit growth already MASSIVELY! You all want to limit it more? Are we not supposed to be about freedom and democracy? I want growth to be satisfying, fast and fun. I mean fast as in it does not lower unless you put in less effort. We all try our best, but with our current grading system NOBODY gets good gradings, no body knows what their getting, and they can not improve without knowing.
I know I am bouncing between topics, but with all of this together I need to get this off my chest. I feel no offence to anyone, the system is broken and HOSTILE to the people who work it. It is not friendly and simple, and it constantly tries to make you do either one thing, or get terrible gradings. I do not want to spend Zeni because I find it is stupid for my character to use artificial machines, just weights. So for me RPing my character, I get less gradings? How will this come to play once we hit 200,000 PL? Will we just remove and make EVERY BOOST %-25? Will I need to wait for my 2 RPs a week, and make them 6K posts to actually go somewhere? Thats what it feels like now! I do not want it to be! I want it to be good, and healthy, and friendly! For me, I HATE GRADING, if you make grading a hassle, boring, and just flat out tedious, you will make mods not want to grade. No mods wanting to grade ---> Many people waiting to be graded. When have we had a new admin outside of the 3? I feel like we are stuck in the past, and will not change to make it better. Or, we are not giving any feedback or help to MAKE it better. What do you think happened to the 2 races I made? I try to help, and I tried to make content, but no one would help me. What about others? I am rambling, but it feels like we are bottle necking, slowing, and generally halting progress for a "Lengthy experience". This is like adding those stupid fetch quests everyone complains about to our games... who wants that constantly?
I apologist if my words offended anyone, I did not imply them to, but they tend to.
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on Mar 18, 2015 19:29:06 GMT
Anyone elese realize that we are not even HALF WAY TO OUR MAX TRANS? Sorry to cap, but at most only two of us are at Tier 2! Athren and Vi! Everyone else is only decently close, or tier 1! Seriously! Do we want to make it so we have to take a year to get Tier 2? I have been here 5 months, and I got all my gains, but I am still only half-way (a little over) to Tier 2, when I have a total of 6 tiers of transformation. We are right now in the earliest part of the site's PL game. I think we should flat out either re-vamp the grading system to make it better, so people stop complaining about it, or we simply make it easy to get your PL. If your active and have good gear, happy! But we put limits on almost everything here to bottleneck growth. Weights only work for a little while, gravity chambers are only twice a week, etc. We limit growth already MASSIVELY! You all want to limit it more? Are we not supposed to be about freedom and democracy? I want growth to be satisfying, fast and fun. I mean fast as in it does not lower unless you put in less effort. We all try our best, but with our current grading system NOBODY gets good gradings, no body knows what their getting, and they can not improve without knowing. I know I am bouncing between topics, but with all of this together I need to get this off my chest. I feel no offence to anyone, the system is broken and HOSTILE to the people who work it. It is not friendly and simple, and it constantly tries to make you do either one thing, or get terrible gradings. I do not want to spend Zeni because I find it is stupid for my character to use artificial machines, just weights. So for me RPing my character, I get less gradings? How will this come to play once we hit 200,000 PL? Will we just remove and make EVERY BOOST %-25? Will I need to wait for my 2 RPs a week, and make them 6K posts to actually go somewhere? Thats what it feels like now! I do not want it to be! I want it to be good, and healthy, and friendly! For me, I HATE GRADING, if you make grading a hassle, boring, and just flat out tedious, you will make mods not want to grade. No mods wanting to grade ---> Many people waiting to be graded. When have we had a new admin outside of the 3? I feel like we are stuck in the past, and will not change to make it better. Or, we are not giving any feedback or help to MAKE it better. What do you think happened to the 2 races I made? I try to help, and I tried to make content, but no one would help me. What about others? I am rambling, but it feels like we are bottle necking, slowing, and generally halting progress for a "Lengthy experience". I think you know how I'm going to respond. 'Growth limitation', while almost non-existent, is in place for several factors. In the canon, we see that after a point people find it harder and harder to gain more strength (and have to resort to transformations to do so). This has to be changed slightly under our PL dynamic, but at the core of the design of the 'World of Dragon Ball' forums, I have tried to retain this theory. As for 'limiting'; obtaining transformations should be hard. Obtaining transformations should be the hardest things to do, and ultra-satisfying when you hit that level. There were about 25 manga volumes (including Dragon Ball, not just Z) before the Super Saiyan transformation was introduced; there were 42 manga volumes total. That should indicate to you something about the pacing I was trying to achieve. Any limitations that were immediately in place are to prevent the totally rampant power scaling that some members would be capable of. Without them, there might be one SSj2 before anyone else even hits the previous tier. I think any attacks against the current grading and power system are a fallacy, unless you can supply one that is better for what this site was designed to achieve, and personally, I'm all ears. Instead, you sound simply frustrated. Anyway, take these points irrelevant to this actual issue to another thread.
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