Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on May 27, 2015 23:29:40 GMT
Time for propositions for the Spirit Bomb, and discussion/propositions for a Makaio equivalent technique (like the Makaioken to the Kaioken). I will put forth the basic ideas we've had below, and may go into greater depth later.
The Spirit Bomb
The Spirit Bomb is a technique that is weak if powered only be the user; it gains strength from having allies. It is mostly commonly used by an allied force against a single strong opponent.
My suggestion is that the Spirit Bomb has, on a solo charge, >50%. This means that it is not a viable technique in solo combat.
However, it would gain the majority of its strength by having energy lent to it by allies; mechanically this would operate as a one-off additional 100% charge (or something) for every ally lending support to the technique. Alternatively, each ally could add an additional >50% charge for every turn of charging.
The Nega Bomb [Placeholder name]
The Makaio equivalent. With some discussion among staff (although the idea was primarily Reikiko's), it was made to be the 'true' opposite of the Spirit Bomb; a technique that is only useful if facing multiple foes, as villains are known to do, and one that does not borrow energy but takes it.
For every enemy faced in combat, the Nega Bomb would leech a greater charge per turn.
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Mayze
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Post by Mayze on May 27, 2015 23:33:00 GMT
Sounds good.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 23:33:01 GMT
I'd just say add the scaling for the "Nega" Bomb, which honestly sounds a little funny in pronunciation. At least how I'm saying it. I also think that since "villians" aren't given the massive power advantage over their opponents as they do in canon, I'd feel that the Nega Bomb would be less useful as villians here wouldn't really be solo fighting 5 people who are likely equal in strength individually to the villain. Especially since the opportunity for strength here is more leaning towards the good guys. Like a better alternative would be to have the "Nega Bomb" have a way higher static level, compared to the spirit bomb which could ultimately outscale given enough people. Like the rate where the 2 are equal in strength in my model would probably be about 4-5 people helping the spirit bomb to 1 nega bomb.
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Post by Toma on May 27, 2015 23:37:38 GMT
No. The Nega Bomb is an absoloutly terrible idea that has already broken the site rules just by the description when it comes to energy stealing.
Forced energy stealing, for every technique I've seen that has it, MUST be a touch based tech. It's OP as hell if someone can forcibly steal energy from you from a distance. So either we need to have a way to resist it or find another way to charge the "Nega Bomb". Just my opinion.
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Bing Gan
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Post by Bing Gan on May 27, 2015 23:45:49 GMT
Just gonna plop down my variation on the Spirit Bomb, maybe you'll like it, maybe you'll hate it, maybe it's exactly your idea and I coincidentally was thinking the same thing. [Special] Spirit Bomb50% Charge Rate Gains an Extra 50% Charge rate per ally who willingly shares energy (Will sap them of energy quite heavily if they're below X base PL) If no Allies are present, gain 10% Charge per post, as the Spirit Bomb can borrow energy from the planet itself. [Special] Fury Bomb (?)75% Charge Rate Gains an Extra 25% Charge rate per enemy you are facing in battle (Not necessarily "Stealing" from the enemies. What i was thinking is it's more like the Attack itself enrages at the sight of so many enemies, so it gets stronger quicker) If only one enemy is present, gain 10% Charge per post, as the "Fury" Bomb can steal energy from the planet itself if needed. Deals Extra damage to Heroes (Not too sure on this last part)
I figure make the Fury Bomb/Hatred Bomb/ Bomb a bit stronger early on, because it's easier to steal energy than it is to get energy lent to you.
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Kahr Diak
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Post by Kahr Diak on May 28, 2015 5:13:28 GMT
I think the Spirit Bomb looks good. My concern with the Nega Bomb is that it seems hard to balance. I'd suggest having it work on a similar principle to the Makaioken - rather than drawing mostly from your allies as with the spirit bomb, you draw mostly from yourself, perhaps allowing a greater than 100% charge per turn and then suffering a penalty to your total PL for the rest of the fight because you've put too much of your own spirit into it. For bonus points you could stack it with the Makaioken and enjoy being at like 10% power afterwards
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Zucceta
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Post by Zucceta on May 28, 2015 12:26:04 GMT
I think the Spirit Bomb looks good. My concern with the Nega Bomb is that it seems hard to balance. I'd suggest having it work on a similar principle to the Makaioken - rather than drawing mostly from your allies as with the spirit bomb, you draw mostly from yourself, perhaps allowing a greater than 100% charge per turn and then suffering a penalty to your total PL for the rest of the fight because you've put too much of your own spirit into it. For bonus points you could stack it with the Makaioken and enjoy being at like 10% power afterwards The issue with this, in staff discussion about it at least, was that we didn't want another technique that operated mechanically similar to the Kaioken techniques. However, it is a valid proposal.
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Kahr Diak
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Post by Kahr Diak on May 28, 2015 12:54:28 GMT
That's totally understandable. The thing is, I'm seeing two ways the Nega Bomb could work if it drew from opponent's power in the thread... Either it is totally unblockable because it adds the user's power + enough of everyone else's that you're going to rock their worlds unless they were pre-charging an attack when you released it... ... or it is easily defeated every time it is used because it works on a low percentage of the target's power and they will always be able to combine an attack and blow it up. I could be totally wrong though, it kinda depends on what the exact numbers involved are. An alternative might be to have the Nega Bomb have a set amount of damage it does depending on the planet you're on as you steal that energy rather than the energy of the enemy fighters (inspired by Cell's Spirit Bomb in one of Budokai 3 - "Okay planet give me that stupid energy!") so on Earth it might do 3 million on Vegeta it might do 1 million because there's less natural wildlife... you could even have it power up from planet > solar system > galaxy or something, if you wanted to get really fancy. The problem with that is that, obviously, past a certain point you're not going to want to use it because your base PL is much higher, and it could potentially unbalance lower level fights really badly... just a random idea I had sooo... obviously needs some refinement. Plus someone would have to work out what the actual attack values were for... everywhere.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 13:57:01 GMT
Kahr once again I am saying that I like your proposals for something. This time I agree that the Nega-Bomb as it where should be a lot like Cell’s Spirit Bomb in Budokai 3. But I think that instead of just pulling from the planet the user should be allowed to pour their own essence into it to strengthen the ball. Maybe when you do this you get a higher return on the energy inputted like a 1.25x or a 1.3x on the amount of ki you place into it is returned on the attack. Though the amount poured into the NEga Bomb would be removed from their own ki pool for the remainder of the thread. Though I can easily see where Rev is coming from with not wanting two techniques so similar to be created and be specials. Well this is my two cents for the moment on this.
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Post by Hyoza on May 28, 2015 14:36:42 GMT
Looks like people misunderstood the proposal for the Nega Bomb (We're changing that name, btw).
It doesn't literally drain opponents' energy, as in none of the good guys in a fight will lose PL or w/e. But it scales based on how outnumbered you are. This allows villains who learn this tech to compete with larger enemy forces - and the more opposition they face, the greater the attack's power becomes.
We've got more heroes than villains on the site, so we're quite rapidly seeing a usefulness for this technique.
Also Toma, please strop trying to gimp the villains at every turn. Literally every time something is proposed that only benefits evil characters, you are against it.
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Kahr Diak
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Post by Kahr Diak on May 28, 2015 14:39:31 GMT
Ah, so it'd scale based on targets but its power wouldn't be related to the power of the targets themselves?
I'm not sure I understand how that'd work lorewise, but OOCly that sounds like a good mechanic for a 'Big Bad' style character to throw down so I'd be cool with that.
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Vi-Poi
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Post by Vi-Poi on May 28, 2015 15:11:30 GMT
Did someone say Nega Bomb? *brushes off his Mega Nega Bomb* Mega Negative Bomb [MP3] Affectionately nicknamed the "Mega Nega" by Vi-Poi, the Mega Negative Bomb is within his ultimate arsenal of attacks. By re-configuring his communications suite into the same telemetry patterns that the Capsule Corporation uses to detect dark matter in deep space, Vi-Poi is able to utilize his yttrium-infused body as an antenna and for ambient negative ki energy. He uses a significant amount of his reactor energy to channel this power with his negatively charged electrons, repulsing the identically charged ki into a single point above his raised hand or finger, which extends isometrically outwards in all direction in the shape of a sphere due to energy efficiency dynamics. The energy is a pulsing bright blue color, and emits an extremely high amount of luminescence that can be seen from miles away. Although it can be fired potently when the size of a fist, when charging and grown to full size, it can grow to the size of a city in diameter, a crackling moon of electricity and ki licked by bolts of bright lightning from the extreme energy differentials of its atmosphere and its termination curve. When released, the Mega Negative Bomb will travel at blinding speeds, impacting its target with a great explosive force that can demolish the largest cities and their suburbs, and much of the surrounding hinterlands. The blast force is usually in the several hundred gigatons range, but can grow much stronger with higher charges. A thick and fiery mushroom cloud will accompany its impact, the sky above will blacken from its negative energy shadow while charging to its maximum limit, and thrum with magnetic aurora. Upon detonation of a highly charged Mega Negative Bomb, vibrations into the Earth's crust and mantle may trigger severe earthquakes, and resultant tsunamis. A quick technical point I'd like to offer -- the Bad Bomb/Drain Bomb and Spirit Bomb shouldn't ever be married with Kaioken/Makaioken so we don't get runaway Special stacks. I like the concepts Zucc put forward a lot.
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Post by sake on May 29, 2015 1:30:25 GMT
Well here are my thoughts on the proposal.
Spirit Bomb itself has several versions. It's first drew it's power from a single source and was basically the size of Yamcha's spirit ball. But the more sources called on to fuel the spirit bomb the bigger it got. Like on namek when goku called on the planet and all life on it. That was considered the super spirit bomb from then on. So you could go in this order for this particular attack.
1 source= 50% 2 or more sources= additional 10-20 % increase demending on planet size, allies, natural wildlife.
Now as for the alternate version for the bad guys....look no further than the styling of Omega Shenrons Minus Energy Bomb. An attack that draws upon the very negative energy in any person or planet since there is always the opposite. Light/dark, positive/negative. So you would have the similar situation of,
50 % on creation. additional 10 % for each source of negative energy. additional 10 % for each enemy faced. ?with a possibility of dealing more damage to good guys vs. bad.?
Now with both of these versions there is a shared drawback. It takes at least one full turn to even form, leaving the user wide open to attack. And with each turn that passes to try and gain extra power makes it even harder to form.
So those are my thoughts at least. a lot of good points made and ideas shared so far.
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Post by President Bao on May 30, 2015 13:07:13 GMT
Keep in mind mechanics rather than flavour folks, flavour is good and all but this is more about working out how it should work functionally. To be honest, I think both the 'good' and 'bad' variants should use the same thing. Refer to this: dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ki"ki is made up of three components: Genki (元気; lit. "Energy"), Yūki (勇気; lit. "Courage") and Shōki (正気; lit. "Mind"). Also, ki can be "positive" or "negative", depending on the user. "So a negative spirit bomb is just as possible as the positive(and Cell even claimed to be able to use one, though he never did.). This was also in GT but it was intended to be the same basic premise with a bebi spin on it: dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Revenge_Death_BallThat out of the way: The spirit bomb was always a move which required a lot of charging, others having to protect goku as he raised his hands in the air and allowed the energy to build. There are many many possible ways we could do this. I think we can all agree that we'd like to draw on an dynamic which utilises support from your allies. The question is do we want your allies actual power level to be a driving factor in spirit bomb, or just the sentiment of their contribution as the main factor. > Additionally, do we want the users own power level to be a defining factor, or some sort of external power (representing the environment they are drawing the genki from) > Perhaps you must remain in your 'base' in order to charge it, but each ally contributes a x1 multiplier to your charge rate(not just one off, you keep this improved charge rate), and the planet you are on have a power level attached to it. > Perhaps everyone in your faction can contribute (even if not in the thread) and anyone directly in the thread can also contribute. > Perhaps we might want exponential, the longer you charge the more charge per turn it has. All possible thoughts.
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Post by Hyoza on May 30, 2015 13:16:07 GMT
I'm still a proponent of the evil version drawing upon enemies' negative energy, rather than allies. But Bao is right to ask many of these questions.
I'm really not sure on where to stand regarding exactly what determines the PL of these attacks. I mean, the whole point of the spirit bomb was you could form an incredibly powerful attack without being very powerful yourself, so maybe it should be more related to the number of contributors and where you are when you do it...
As for remaining in base... From a canon perspective, this only applied to Saiyans, as the Super Saiyan form taints one's mind with negative emotions (mostly anger and hatred), which prevents the user from forming a Spirit Bomb. Pure heart required, etc. For balance terms, it's a tougher issue. Late-game, many will find themselves with permanent xforms. This also wouldn't really matter if the source of the attack's PL is unrelated to the user themselves.
Planets having different charge rates may prove problematic, what if somebody is RPing on a 'custom' world out in space? Either we assign a constant value to all non-section locations, which may prove somewhat dissatisfying, or we allow people to construct their setting and have mods assign it a value based on the information available. the problem with the latter solution, is it's ripe for abuse, and people may simply choose to occupy highly-populated worlds.
I think exponential would make these techs unbeatable if you could manage to pull them off... Give that the spirit bomb was only ever successfully used once in the show, I'm not sure I like that possibility. However, i could definitely agree to giving them 'unlimited charge time' - so you could charge it well beyond the normal 3 post limit, if circumstances allowed.
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